Exceeding Great Many do Stumble

 

1 Nephi 13:29 - 33, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 22

And after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the gentiles, yea, even across the many waters (which thou hast seen) with the gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest, because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book — which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God — that because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations upon the face of the land — which is choice above all other lands, which is the land the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance — will not utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed who are among thy brethren. Neither will he suffer that the gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren; neither will the Lord God suffer that the gentiles shall for ever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. Wherefore, saith the Lamb of God, I will be merciful unto the gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

The Stick of Joseph in the Hand of Ephraim, 1 Nefi 3 par. 22

And after it goes forth unto all the nations of the Goyim, yes, even across the many waters (which you have seen) with the Goyim which have gone forth out of captivity, you see, because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book — which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of Elohim — that because of these things which are taken away out of the besorah of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yes, insomuch that HaSatan has great power over them. Nevertheless, you behold that the Goyim who have gone forth out of captivity and have been lifted up by the power of Elohim above all other nations upon the face of the land — which is choice above all other lands, which is the land Adonai yhwh has covenanted with your father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance — will not utterly destroy the mixture of your seed who are among your brothers. Neither will he allow that the Goyim shall destroy the seed of your brothers; neither will Adonai yhwh allow that the Goyim shall for ever remain in that awful state of blindness, which you behold they are in because of the plain and most precious parts of the besorah of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation you have seen. Wherefore, says the Lamb of Elohim, I will be merciful unto the Goyim, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Isra’el in great judgment.

Why would it be helpful to understand why Nephi recorded the term "stumble" instead of using other terms to describe the conditions of the gentiles at this point in his vision?

What are the components of Satan's great power over a people who have been caused to "stumble" because of plain and precious truths that have been removed from the Gospel of the Lamb?

In order to look at what it would mean to "stumble" as the Lord sees the term would it be beneficial to look at the history of the Prophet Joseph?

As we look at this part of Nephi's vision with the Gentiles and the limited and altered Book of the Lamb of God, if we consider what the Prophet Joseph experienced would it be possible for us to see a little more clearly what can happen when we "stumble" in the scriptural sense?

What is the difference between the gentiles being said to "stumble" here and what we previously discussed in the blog concerning "dwindling in unbelief"?

Is there a difference or is to "stumble" the exact same thing as "dwindling in unbelief"?

Why is Nephi specific when he declares that exceedingly many gentiles "stumble" because of the plain and precious things taken out of the Book of the Lamb of God instead of stating that exceedingly many gentiles "dwindled in unbelief"?

The following comes from the Glossary of Gospel Terms in the Teachings and Commandments concerning "Dwindling in Unbelief".

When one prizes his or her errors and holds them as true (when they are not), one dwindles in unbelief. Unbelief is often used in connection with losing truth, forsaking doctrine, and therefore, “dwindling.” The phrase “dwindling in unbelief” is the Book of Mormon’s way to describe moving from a state of belief, with true and complete doctrine, to a state of unbelief, where the truth has been discarded. Miracles end because men dwindle in unbelief.

With the gentiles who originally came to this land did they regress from a state of having a fulness of truth to losing truth and forsaking doctrine?

When the gentiles initially arrived did they possess true and complete doctrine?

Are we able to look at history and determine that there were events where the gentiles were shown to prize their errors and hold them as true?

What about miracles?

If we are to review history is it possible for us to see that there were miracles that occurred in the lives of the early gentiles that inhabited this land?

Were there miracles that affected the entire nation of the early gentiles?

If miracles cease when men dwindle in unbelief but history clearly demonstrates that the early gentiles had miracles among them, even though they "stumbled", does that mean that it is better to be in a position of "stumbling" than to be in a position of dwindling in unbelief"?

Nephi clearly states that

 And I beheld the spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the gentiles, that they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance. And I beheld that they were white, and exceeding fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord, and the power of the Lord was with them. And I beheld that their mother gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them. And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle. And I, Nephi, beheld that the gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land. (1 Nephi 13:10-12,14-20, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 20)

Even in the condition of "stumbling" with Satan having great power over them the original gentiles 

1) Humbled themselves before the Lord

2) Had the power of God with them 

3) Had the wrath of God against all nations that gathered together to battle against them

4) Were delivered by the power of God

5) Prospered in the land (we talked about this phrase earlier in the blog)

Aren't we told by Nephi that the early gentiles obtained this land as a land of promise to them?

Nephi is clear in his statement that the gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations upon the face of the land — which is choice above all other lands,...

What about those who dwindle in unbelief?

 And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel. And because of the pride of my seed and the temptations of the Devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren did overpower the people of my seed. And it came to pass that I beheld and saw the people of the seed of my brethren, that they had overcome my seed, and they went forth in multitudes upon the face of the land. And I saw them gathered together in multitudes; and I saw wars and rumors of wars among them, and in wars and rumors of wars I saw many generations pass away. And the angel said unto me, Behold, these shall dwindle in unbelief. And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief, they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.(1 Nephi 12:19 - 23, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 18)

Doesn't Nephi describe those who "dwindle in unbelief" as becoming dark, and loathsome, and filthy, and full of all manner of idleness and abominations?

Is this a different state than the early gentiles found themselves in?

Did the Lord uphold these who had dwindled in unbelief?

Wherefore, saith the Lamb of God, I will be merciful unto the gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment.

Is it possible that the principles taught in the following scriptures apply here with respect to groups of people or nations as well as to individuals?

And it came to pass that the people of God were joined that day by more than the number who had been slain; and those who had been slain were righteous people, therefore we have no reason to doubt but what they are saved. And there was not a wicked man slain among them, but there were more than a thousand brought to the knowledge of the truth; thus we see that the Lord worketh in many ways to the salvation of his people. Now the greatest number of those of the Lamanites who slew so many of their brethren were Amlicites and Amulonites, the greatest number of whom were after the order of the Nehors. Now among those who joined the people of the Lord, there were none who were Amlicites, or Amulonites, or who were after the order of Nehor, but they were actual descendants of Laman and Lemuel. And thus we can plainly discern that after a people have been once enlightened by the spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened; and thus their state becomes worse than if they had never known these things.(Alma 24:26 - 30, NC Alma 14 par. 12)

Yea, they have all gone out of the way, they have become corrupted; because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride, they are puffed up. They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing, and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart because in their pride they are puffed up. They wear stiff necks and high heads, yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray, save it be a few who are the humble followers of Christ. Nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.(2 Nephi 28:11 - 14, NC 2 Nephi 12 par. 2)

Do peoples or nations that dwindle in unbelief find themselves in a position of once having been enlightened by the spirit of God and then falling away into sin and transgression?

Do peoples or nations that "stumble" because of plain and precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb of God find themselves that they are humble followers of Christ who err in many instances because they are taught by the precepts of men?

Which group finds themselves in a state of condemnation?

Would those who "stumble" find themselves in the following condition?

And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differeth from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fullness of the Father, even as that of the moon differeth from the sun of the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law, and also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of this glory, but not of this fullness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial and not bodies Celestial, and differeth in glory as the moon differeth from the sun. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, wherefore, they obtained not the crown over the kingdoms of our God. And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the spirit. (D&C 76:71 - 80, T&C 69 par. 23)

Could it be said of honorable men of the earth that they "stumble" when they are blinded by the craftiness of men?

Could it be said of those who are without the law that they "stumble"?

Does it appear here that those honorable men who are blinded or those without the law are under condemnation?

This scripture says that they receive the presence of the Son or could it be said that they will be able to abide the day of the coming of the Son?

Would those who have "dwindled in unbelief" be able to abide the day of the coming of the Son in glory to the world?

If any of this relates to a correct idea of a difference between "stumbling" and "dwindling in unbelief" and if I consider that at any point I have been enlightened by the spirit of God and have had the privilege of having a greater knowledge of things pertaining to truth then is it possible for me to find myself in a condition of great condemnation by "dwindling in unbelief"?

As I presently understand things, I believe that if I have truly been enlightened then I am no longer in a state where I could be considered to "stumble", which to me "stumbling" does not appear to be a state that warrants condemnation however lacking it is in being able to receive a fulness, but I may find myself under great condemnation and worthy of suffering God's wrath through my "dwindling in unbelief".

Was this statement by the Lord to the early saints of the church related in any way to this?

And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation rests upon the children of Zion, even all, and they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon, and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say but to do according to that which I have written, that they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom. Otherwise, there remains a scourge and a judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion, for shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, verily I say unto you, nay. (D&C 84:54 - 59, T&C 82 par. 20)

Shouldn't we be greatly concerned and ever vigilant of what condition of understanding we find ourselves in personally, as a group, and as a nation?

As we look at the events in the Book of Mormon over the periods of both the Jaredite and Nephite histories can we detect that those who "dwindle in unbelief" invariably seek to control and rule over others?

As a whole, did the early gentiles possess a desire to control and rule over others or did they possess a desire to allow others to choose their own way?

Is Nephi in any way relating the "stumbling" of the gentiles, because of their lack of a fulness of truth, to how they treated and destroyed the remnant of Lehi on this land?

Were the gentiles actions towards the remnant of Lehi considered God's judgments upon the remnant of the house of Israel in Nephi's eyes?

For God to complete judgment upon the remnant of Lehi was it necessary for the gentiles to "stumble" for a time?

Are any or all of the above ideas in any way maybe related to the why of Nephi using the term "stumble" instead of the phrase "dwindle in unbelief" when describing the early gentiles even though there is a bit of overlap in the characteristics of "dwindling" and "stumbling"?

As we look at the great power that Satan has over a people who are stumbling can we look first at what the Lord stated to the Nephites concerning His doctrine and gave them power to baptize?

And again, the Lord called others and said unto them likewise, and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them, On this wise shall ye baptize, and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them: behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying, Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name, for behold, verily I say unto you that the Father and the Son and the holy ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one. And according as I have commanded you, thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there hath hitherto been, neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there hath hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the Devil, who is the father of contention; and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another, but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. (3 Nephi 11:22 - 30, NC 3 Nephi 5 par. 8)

What was the Lord's declaration to the Nephites concerning disputations and contention concerning the points of His doctrine?

At the time in history when the Prophet Joseph was considering the things of God leading up to the first vision what were the events that Joseph observed and what were his thoughts concerning these events?

During this time of great excitement, my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness, but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. But in process of time, my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them. But so great was the confusion and strife amongst the different denominations that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. My mind at different times was greatly excited; the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all their powers of either reason or sophistry to prove their errors, or at least to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself, What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right? Or are they all wrong together? And if any one of them be right, which is it? And how shall I know it? While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse [Epistle of Jacob 1:2], which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did. For how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, would never know, for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs — that is, ask of God. I at last came to the determination to ask of God, concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally and not upbraid, I might venture. So in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties, I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally. (Joseph Smith History 1:8 - 14, T&C Section 1 Joseph Smith History Part 2, pars. 2 - 3)

Could any of these actions observed by the Prophet Joseph fall into the category of disputations and contentions?

What condition does a "war of words and tumult of opinions" bring to mind?

Is it "stumbling" for the teachers of religion of the different sects (to understand) the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.?

Is it possible for Satan to have great power over a people who are engaged in a war of words and a tumult of opinions who understand the same passage of scripture so differently from one another?

Was it the differing understanding of scripture that caused Satan of have power over them or was it the war of words over their different understandings?

Is it possible for people who hold different understandings of scripture and other matters to have wonderful and insightful communications with each other? 

When Joseph decided to find out from God for himself what direction to go he received this counsel.

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner therefore did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that, They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. He again forbade me to join with any of them, and many other things did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time. (Joseph Smith History 1:18 - 20, T&C Section 1, Joseph Smith History Part 2, par. 5)

When a people "stumbles" because the plain and precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb have been hidden from them is it possible, maybe even likely, that they will establish creeds?

We discussed earlier in the blog about abominations.

My present understanding is that an abomination is as follows.

The use of religion to suppress truth or impose a false form of truth. It involves the religious justification of wrongdoing. That is, something becomes abominable when it is motivated out of a false form of religious observance or is justified because of religious error. (T&C, Glossary of Gospel Terms, "Abomination")

If, because of a lack of possessing truth, one follows a certain religious path that is an abomination or in other words a false form of religious observance can it be said of that person that Satan has great power over them because they cannot receive a fulness of God's glory in such a condition?

If one believes in teachings that draw near to God but because of a lack of possessing the truth their hearts are far from God can it be said that Satan has great power over them even if their condition does not merit God's condemnation?

If, again because of a lack of possessing truth, a person is taught or is teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and have a form of godliness but deny the power of godliness (we talked about this earlier in the blog) can it be said of them that Satan has great power over them even if their condition does not merit condemnation from God?

Clearly God did not want Joseph's mind polluted with the teachings of the day.

My present understanding is that it was and is infinitely easier for God to take someone who, although they are "stumbling", has no preconceived notions as to what is truth so They can teach them truth.

Is it possible that is why the Lord commanded us to become like children?

Do children have any preconceived notions concerning truth?

The reason this is important to me for me to understand is that I believe that the condition of "stumbling" because of a lack of truth, as bad as that condition is, is preferred to the condition of "dwindling in unbelief".

I do believe that a concerted effort to remain in a state of "stumbling" does bring the condemnation of Heaven, though.

My present understanding is that once truth is offered it ought to be embraced or we are damned for rejecting it.  But one who is "stumbling" because of no fault of their own is not under condemnation even though it is impossible for them to receive a fulness of what God desires to offer.

I believe that this difference is critical for all of us individually, as groups, or as a nation as a whole right now.

Lehi and others warned their contemporaries that they “must repent or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.” 1 Ne. 1:2RE Although he made the warning, he prayed for the people he had been warning, “even with all his heart in behalf of his people.” Id., paragraph 3. This should make us ask, who exactly were “his people?”

While praying on behalf of “his people” a pillar of fire descended “and he saw and heard much.” Id. This overcame him, and he went home and collapsed. As he laid on his bed, he was “carried away in a vision.” Id. In the vision he was shown “concerning Jerusalem: that it should be destroyed and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword and many should be carried away captive into Babylon.” Id.

Terrible destruction was just around the corner. His city and many of its residents would die, and the rest would go into captivity. But Lehi’s response seems oddly out of place. Instead of being sorrowful at what he saw instead, “he did exclaim many things unto the Lord, such as, Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the Heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish!” Id. Why this reaction?

Destruction was coming, but that had nothing to do with those who “come unto” the Lord. People were to be destroyed and enslaved, but Lehi’s prayer on behalf of “his people” gave him assurance that “they shall not perish” because they had come unto the Lord.

When wickedness overcomes people who have been taught to be better, it is a natural progression for them to be destroyed. The Book of Mormon has been available for nearly two centuries. It warns us and our ancestors of the following: “we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God or they shall be swept off when the fullness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fullness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity. For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands. Wherefore, he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off, for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fullness of iniquity among the children of the land that they are swept off. And this cometh unto you, O ye gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God, that ye may repent and not continue in your iniquities until the fullness be come, that ye may not bring down the fullness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land hath hitherto done. Behold, this is a choice land; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under Heaven if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who has been manifested by the things which we have written.” Ether 1:7RE

But destruction does not await those whom the Lord has promised by covenant that: “And you shall be called the children of the Most High God, and I will preserve you against the harvest. And the angels sent to harvest the world will gather the wicked into bundles to be burned, but will pass over you as my peculiar treasure.” T&C 158:17-18

So there is reason to fear coming judgments upon the wicked, but also reason to exclaim, like Lehi: Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God Almighty! Your throne is high in the Heavens, and your power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and because you are merciful, you will not suffer those who come unto you that they shall perish! ("Destruction and Rejoicing", Denversnuffer.com, Jan 10, 2021)

As a nation, I do not believe that we are in a position of "stumbling".  I believe that we are well into "dwindling in unbelief" that has made us a dark and a loathsome and a filthy people full of all manner of idleness and abominations.

I believe that the Lord has set His hand again now the second time to redeem His people Israel because the first attempt begun by the Prophet Joseph was halted because those who initially received God's words came under God's condemnation.  

Any and all who desire to accept the Doctrine of Christ and be baptized/rebaptized and enter into a new covenant They, God have established may do so.

In my mind, what Nephi is presenting here ought to make us consider quite seriously our condition before God.

Are we in a position of "stumbling" or "dwindling"?

Last night a question occurred to me that I will add here.

Until we come to a "perfect day" and  see as we are seen and know as we are known as Paul put it do we continue to exist in a condition of "stumbling"?

Turn back to Mormon—in the Book of Mormon—Mormon chapter 9. I wanna begin in verse 2 of chapter 9. And this stuff really sounds ominous, so I’m gonna read it with an ominous voice, because I just want to make you feel. ​Behold. You know, this is Mormon; this is late in the gig. He’s lived an NC-17 life. Between the rape, followed by the cannibalism of the women that had been raped, and the murder and the mayhem and the torture, I mean, this is the guy who abridged the Book of Mormon, okay? That’s the life that he was subjected to. So look at these words:

Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God? Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your [own] guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and… the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.

Now I want you to read those verses and ask yourself, “Exactly what is it that God is doing?” The only thing that God is doing is ​being​. He simply exists. This is you. God ​is.​ And He’s simply revealing Himself to you. And this is your reaction. And why is this your r​eaction? Because you don’t have the power of godliness. And why don’t you have that? Because you need to repent. And what is it that you must repent of? The absence of knowledge about God. You don’t know enough yet to be saved.

The plan of salvation is the plan of education—the plan of knowledge about God and the principles of godliness and the basis upon which all of you can live together and be of one heart and one mind. And it doesn’t matter that some of you have strange political beliefs. And it doesn’t matter that some of you would like to see every gun in the universe recalled and melted down, so we could all, I don’t know, attack one another with the remaining butts of the guns that weren’t melted down, ‘cause they’re wood? I don’t know; I mean— And others of you would like every child issued their own concealed-carry permit and to be armed in kindergarten. None of that stuff separates you from being able to love one another and be one. Because much of what you think matters, doesn’t matter one whit to the Lord. And you know what? When you’re anxiously engaged in the right cause, you’ll be surprised how much of our deepest concerns are merely trivial. The things of the heart are what matters. The things upon which we are capable of becoming one, in love toward one another, are infinitely greater.("Love Part 1", Denver Snuffer Podcast, Denversnuffer.com)

If we don't know enough yet to be saved, then aren't we in a condition of "stumbling" until we finally receive the knowledge about God that we need to receive in order to be saved?

If the plan of salvation is a plan of education is that education planned precisely to remove our "stumbling blocks"?

Is what Nephi is pointing out here a pattern that we can use?

If the early gentiles, even though they "stumbled", had the spirit of God with them because they humbled themselves before God then is that the same pattern for us until we receive a "perfect day"?

Is this what is pointed to by the experience of Abraham?

In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence. And finding there was greater happiness, and peace, and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the Fathers and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same. Having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a Father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a high priest, holding the right belonging to the Fathers. It was conferred upon me from the Fathers: it came down from the Fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning (or before the foundations of the earth) to the present time, even the right of the firstborn (or the first man — who is Adam — or first Father) through the Fathers unto me. I sought for my appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the Fathers concerning the seed.(Abraham 1:1 - 4, T&C Section 145, The Book of Abraham 1 par.1)

Was Abraham, a follower of righteousness who desired to be a greater follower of righteousness by gaining greater knowledge testifying to us that he knew that he was "stumbling" and desired more and more knowledge in order to finally emerge from his "stumbling" (he learned enough to be saved)?

Is it possible that to humble yourself before God while stumbling leads to or represents the pattern of restoration while dwindling in unbelief leads to or represents apostacy from truth?

So would the greater question individually, as a group, or as a nation as a whole be do we find ourselves in a condition of humbling ourselves before God while we stumble or do we find ourselves in a condition of dwindling in unbelief?

My present understanding is that we are never standing still. We are either moving in the direction of restoration (humbling while stumbling) or the direction of apostacy (dwindling in unbelief), personally, as a group, or as a nation as a whole.

A Book Carried Forth Among the Gentiles

 1 Nephi 13:20 - 29, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 21

And I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them. And the angel said unto me, Knowest thou the meaning of the book? And I said, I know not. And he said, Behold, it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew — and I, Nephi, beheld it. And he said unto me, The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets. And it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many. Nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the gentiles. And the angel of the Lord said unto me, Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew. And when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew, it contained the fullness of the gospel of the Lamb, of whom the twelve apostles bare record; and they bare record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb from the Jews unto the gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is the most abominable of all other churches. For behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and most precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. And after these plain and precious things were taken away, it goeth forth unto all the nations of the gentiles.

The Stick of Joseph in the Hand of Ephraim, 1 Nefi 3 par. 21

And I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them. And the angel said unto me, Do you know the meaning of the book? And I said, I know not. And he said, Behold, it proceeds out of the mouth of a Y’hudi — and I, Nefi, beheld it. And he said unto me, The book that you behold is a record of the Y’hudim, which contains the covenants of yhwh which he has made unto the house of Isra’el; and it also contains many of the prophecies of the holy prophets. And it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, except there are not so many. Nevertheless, they contain the covenants of yhwh which he has made unto the house of Isra’el; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Goyim. And the angel of yhwh said unto me, You have beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Y’hudi. And when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Y’hudi, it contained the fulness of the besorah of the Lamb, of whom the twelve emissaries bore record; and they bore record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of Elohim. Wherefore, these things go forth from the Y’hudim in purity unto the Goyim, according to the truth which is in Elohim. And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve emissaries of the Lamb from the Y’hudim unto the Goyim, you see the formation of that great and abominable church, which is the most abominable of all other churches. For behold, they have taken away from the besorah of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of yhwh have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of yhwh, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, you see that after the book has gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and most precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of Elohim. And after these plain and precious things were taken away, it goes forth unto all the nations of the Goyim.

I must confess that in the myriad of times I have either read or heard this verse being read that I had envisioned the Bible, an incomplete and error ridden scriptural text, among the early American gentiles and that was the end of the story.   

I considered that all I had to learn from this part of Nephi's vision was that the Bible, through the centuries, had become a corrupted text.

With our little Book of Mormon study group we have come to believe that everything God had the prophets include in the text of the Book of Mormon is included for teaching purposes.

So, I would like to repent and look into what Nephi is sharing here a little deeper.

Was Nephi seeing in the first part of this section of his vision the mission of the early Apostles to the gentiles?

For Nephi to be able to understand the words of his father Lehi concerning the gentiles and the role of repentant gentiles in assisting to restore the House of Israel in the last days wouldn't he necessarily need to witness the time when the Lord changed directions with respect to ministering the gospel from the Jews to the gentile nations?

Didn't that ministry begin with the original twelve bearing record to the gentiles of the fullness of the gospel of the Lamb according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God?

Doesn't this verse clearly show that God planned this change in direction to occur by stating Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the gentiles, according to the truth which is in God?

Did this event in world history begin to fulfill what the Lord declared to the Nephites when He spoke of other sheep belonging to His fold?

And they understood me not, that I said, They shall hear my voice, and they understood me not that the gentiles should not at that time hear my voice, that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the holy ghost... (3 Nephi 15:11 - 16:3, NC 3 Nephi 7 par. 3)

What does it mean that the Lord would not manifest Himself to the Gentiles save it were by the Holy Ghost?

The Lord further told the Nephites that they had both seen Him and heard His voice.

What is going on here?

Didn't the Prophet Joseph, a gentile, both see and heard the Lord?

How is what happened to Joseph different than what happened to the Jews at Jerusalem during the life of the Lord or the Nephites or the other sheep the Lord visited during His ministry following His resurrection?

I have an opinion on the matter but, even if it is correct, I'm sure that it is only part of the answer.

Abinadi described the dual nature of the Lord to King Noah and his priests.

And now Abinadi said unto them, I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh, he shall be called the Son of God; and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son — the Father because he was conceived by the power of God, and the Son because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son (and they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of Heaven and of earth), and thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God — suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. ( Mosiah 15:6 - 9, NC Mosiah 8 par. 6)

Abinadi boldly declared that Christ is both the Father and the Son.

As the Son He dwelt in the flesh; which scripturally I interpret to mean that He condescended to become mortal (in the flesh).

Abinadi declares that the Lord subjected the flesh (His mortal existence?) to the will of His Father.

Would subjecting the flesh to the will of the Father have also entailed performing the atonement?

The Lord declared to Pilate that it was for that cause He came into the world or became mortal. (John 18:33 - 38, NC The Testimony of John 10 par. 7)

By subjecting the flesh (using His mortality?) to complete the atonement Christ becomes the Father as well doesn't He?

As the Son, Christ was mortal and he could be heard and seen by both the righteous and the wicked the pure and the profane the unrepentant and the penitent.

His mission was to the House of Israel and not to the Gentiles so those who both saw and heard him in mortality, the House of Israel, didn't need the power of the Holy Ghost to do so.

Following His role change from Son to Father after completing the atonement and subjecting the flesh to the Father's will Christ was no longer accessible like He was during His mortality.

Now for an individual to see Him and hear His voice in person they would have to apply to the conditions of His doctrine which includes the Father bestowing the Holy Ghost on someone who has exercised faith in Christ by repenting and being baptized as He declared to the Nephites.

The Lord would only manifest Himself to the Gentiles who did not see Him or hear Him in mortality if they received the Holy Ghost.

Even the unrepentant saw Him and heard Him in mortality as the Son.

As the Father, it is only the penitent who qualify to have Him manifest Himself to them.

Is it possible that this is the reason that the angel declared to Nephi concerning the book when it first went forth in purity that, "And it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many. Nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the gentiles"?

When the book first went forth among the gentiles did it contain everything the gentiles needed to know in order to receive the Holy Ghost so that the Lord could manifest Himself to them by the power of the Holy Ghost?

At that point in history was it possible for the gentiles who received these things given in their purity to understand the promises of the Lord to the House of Israel and their place in these promises?

What is entailed in the "fulness of the gospel of the Lamb"?

That is what the gentiles initially received from the mouth of the Jew.

Why would God want the title of the Lamb used here instead of for example the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Why would the Book of Mormon be said to contain a fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but this other book, in the beginning, contained a fulness of the gospel of the Lamb?

Wouldn't both texts contain the same doctrine?

Is it possible that the title "gospel of the Lamb" is used because it contained eye witness accounts of those who walked with the Lord in this mortal life as the "Lamb"?

I believe that all Nephite prophets saw the Lord's ministry in vision just as Nephi and Lehi did but is it different to have an eyewitness account of someone walking beside the Lord through His mortal life?

The “book of the Lamb of God” is later identified as the record we know as the New Testament. Altered, limited, with plain and precious materials removed, nevertheless called the “book of the Lamb of God.” Acceptance of this New Testament book, notwithstanding its limitations and omissions, is akin to Christ referring to the Temple of Herod as His “Father’s house” despite the fact that it had been profaned.

 

Although Christ called Herod’s Temple His Father’s house, He did not commune with His Father there. Christ visited with angelic ministers on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-3), in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22: 43), in the wilderness (Matt. 4: 11), and alone while apart from others.  But there is no record of Him entertaining angels while in Herod’s Temple. Though the Temple had been profaned and was unworthy to receive such visitors, Christ still honored the site and referred to it in sacred terms. This is a great key to understanding Christ’s language here.

 

The “book of the Lamb of God” is revered and held in extraordinary esteem, as is evidenced by the terminology used in this revelation to Nephi. Nevertheless the book is corrupted, changed, with many plain and precious things removed.

 

Can the book that has come to the “seed of Nephi’s brethren” be said to be less than a fullness? Can the book be called “the book of the Lamb of God?” If it can be called “the book of the Lamb of God” can it also be said to contain a fullness?

______________________________

[Here’s a modern detour in question-asking: Do you focus on the book’s value and worth by calling it the “book of the Lamb of God” or do you focus on the book’s failings by saying many plain and precious things have been removed?  If you do the one are you “positive” and “hopeful” and “Christ-like?” And if you focus on the other are you “negative” and “judgmental” and “un-Christ-like?” Is Nephi being fair and accurate by including the book’s limitations? Or is he just another crank, tearing down the good works and valuable intent of others?  Should he repent of his negativity? Ought we be offended?

 

These kinds of questions are more a reflection of our own insecurities and foolishness than they are helpful to understanding Christ’s “strange act” unfolding before our disbelieving eyes.  (D&C 101: 93-95.)]

______________________________ (1 Nephi 13:38, Denversnuffer.com, 2 July 2010)

If I am to be truthful I have to state that I had previously viewed the New Testament negatively and judgmentally which I agree reflected my own insecurities and foolishness.

If I consider the restoration don't I need to consider that the book of the Lamb of God, although it did not contain a fulness of the gospel of the Lamb by the time of the prophet Joseph, contained light and truth sufficient to inspire a 14 year old boy to open the heavens?

Shouldn't I also consider that, although incomplete, this scriptural text inspired Martin Luther to begin the reformation?

Shouldn't I consider that this text enlightened the eyes and understandings of the founding fathers of the United States to form a government protective of the principles of agency?

Shouldn't I consider that the words of this text caused the gentiles to be wrought upon, in the first instance, by the Spirit of the Lord to leave their gentile homes to come to this land?

Aren't there many many things that occurred in the history of the world that were beneficial that were brought about by people inspired by the words of the book of the Lamb, however incomplete it had become?

Isn't all of this part of the Lord's plan over two millennia to put in place what He wants in order to fulfill His promises to the original Fathers, from Adam?

Is any of this a demonstration that God through faith can take an individual, even with no more than a tattered remnant of Their word, to a higher plane where They can more fully communicate with that individual?

Does any of this demonstrate how important faith is in receiving knowledge and gifts from heaven?

It has been good for me to look deeper into what Nephi is communicating here.

The Spirit of God Wrought Upon the Gentiles

1 Nephi 13:10 - 12, 14 - 20, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 20 

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters, and they divided the gentiles from the seed of my brethren. And it came to pass that the angel said unto me, Behold, the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren. And I looked and beheld a man among the gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man, and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren who were in the promised land. And it came to pass that I beheld the spirit of God, that it wrought upon other gentiles, and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters. And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the gentiles and were smitten. And I beheld the spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the gentiles, that they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance. And I beheld that they were white, and exceeding fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord, and the power of the Lord was with them. And I beheld that their mother gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them. And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle. And I, Nephi, beheld that the gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land.

The Stick of Joseph in the Hand of Ephraim 1 Nefi 3 par. 20

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters, and they divided the Goyim from the seed of my brothers. And it came to pass that the angel said unto me, Behold, the wrath of Elohim is upon the seed of your brothers. And I looked and beheld a man among the Goyim, who was separated from the seed of my brothers by the many waters; and I beheld the Ruach Elohim, that it came down and worked upon the man, and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brothers who were in the promised land. And it came to pass that I beheld the Ruach Elohim, that it worked upon other Goyim, and they went forth out of captivity upon the many waters. And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Goyim upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of Elohim, that it was upon the seed of my brothers; and they were scattered before the Goyim and were smitten. And I beheld the spirit of yhwh, that it was upon the Goyim, that they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance. And I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. And it came to pass that I, Nefi, beheld that the Goyim who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before yhwh, and the power of yhwh was with them. And I beheld that their mother Goyim were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them. And I beheld that the power of Elohim was with them, and also that the wrath of Elohim was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle. And I, Nefi, beheld that the Goyim that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of Elohim out of the hands of all other nations. And it came to pass that I, Nefi, beheld that they did prosper in the land. 

I, for the first time in my life, that I know of, can testify that I know that the Book of Mormon is scripture and that it comes from God.  I am now sure of this.  I know this because of what is contained in it.  I am no longer in need of any external, historical, or other type of proof to settle my heart on the matter.  The Book of Mormon is a gift of God.  It came forth by His power and it contains the fulness of the gospel of Christ.  As weak as it is, this is my witness.

One thing I hope to again reiterate is that anything that I share in this blog is something that resonates with me at this moment in time.  These things constitute my own present personal understanding of doctrine, teachings, principles, and tenets contained in the Book of Mormon and other sources I consider to be scripture.

I am mostly blind and so I consider that anything I share is most likely going to be something that may be right but is woefully incomplete at best or more likely something that is in error.  I hope that anyone who reads anything in this blog will have charity on me for my errors and will search and find out what is true and right because they have been egged on, so to speak, by reading my erroneous statements and have become uncomfortable with said statements.

I also invite anyone to share their insights and corrections via comments.  I am not afraid of being wrong and I am excited to hear the points of view of others.  I can only see good in exchanging dialogue and points of view concerning what is in the Book of Mormon. 

One thing folks will notice is that I have recently begun to use a plural pronoun when I refer to God that is because of the following.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27, OC Genesis 2 par.8)

The above scripture confirms that the image of God is a male and female, a husband and a wife.

God is clearly pointing this out to us at the very beginning of the account concerning the creation of the earth.

They two are one and man was created to reflect this.

I do not pray to a mother in heaven.  The scriptures command us to pray to the Father in the name of the Son.  However, I do feel that it is very appropriate to point out that the image of God is a husband and wife together working as one so I use plural pronouns when referring to God.

As we look at this verse is it possible again to see that the Nephites who survived the final wars with the Lamanites lost their Nephite status or in other words their covenant status?

And now there are many records kept of the proceedings of this people, by many of this people, which are particular and very large concerning them; but behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people — yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping, and their building of ships, and their building of temples and of synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plunderings, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms — cannot be contained in this work. But behold, there are many books and many records of every kind, and they have been kept chiefly by the Nephites. And they have been handed down from one generation to another by the Nephites, even until they have fallen into transgression and have been murdered, plundered, and hunted, and driven forth, and slain, and scattered upon the face of the earth, and mixed with the Lamanites until they are no more called the Nephites, becoming wicked, and wild, and ferocious, yea, even becoming Lamanites. (Helaman 3:13 - 16, NC Helaman 2 par. 4)

Nephi confirms the above statement by Mormon as he was abridging the account of Helaman because he, Nephi, refers to those on the American content as now the seed of his brothers and not his own even though some of his descendants by blood mixed with the Lamanites at the end.

Seeing things as they really are, Nephi again confirms to us that it is possible for a group of people who have at one time received a covenant from God to lose their status as covenant holders because of their transgressions.

Shouldn't we be alarmed that such a reality exists?

Shouldn't this make us look inward?

If we view that we are a part of a people who received a covenant from God at one point, wouldn't it be good for us to look at the traditions and present actions of that people to see if those traditions and actions actually reflect what is contained in the covenant that was originally given?

Did God give anything to any group of gentiles that reflects a covenant?

And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation rests upon the children of Zion, even all, and they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon, and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say but to do according to that which I have written, that they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom. Otherwise, there remains a scourge and a judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion, for shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, verily I say unto you, nay. (D&C 84:54 - 59, T&C 82 par. 20)

If we look into the Book of Mormon and see what God actually requires of a covenant people do we see the teachings of the Book of Mormon reflected in the actions of the people who received the Book of Mormon or can we detect that these teachings have been and are presently being discarded?

What did the Father command the Lord to declare to the Nephites concerning the gentile church that would receive this new covenant, even the Book of Mormon?

But woe, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the gentiles, for — notwithstanding that they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel, and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them and have been trodden under feet by them; and because of the mercies of the Father unto the gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel — verily, verily I say unto you that after all this — and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them — and, thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations, and if they shall do all these things, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, Behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them. And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. And I will shew unto thee, O house of Israel, that the gentiles shall not have power over you, but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fullness of my gospel. But if the gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold, they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. And I will not suffer my people who are of the house of Israel to go through among them and tread them down, saith the Father. But if they will not turn unto me and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them — yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel — that they shall go through among them and shall tread them down and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:8 - 15, NC 3 Nephi 7 par. 5)

Does it appear from the Lord's declaration that the gentile body who would receive the new covenant even the Book of Mormon would fall into transgression like the Nephites?

If the gentile body is full of all manner of lyings and deceits, and mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations even as they are lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all the people of the whole earth declaring that they are "the true church" (which resembles the Zoramites by the way) does that qualify as falling into transgression?

The Lord used the word "when" not "if" when he referred to the gentile church falling into transgression what does that imply?

Would it be inappropriate to equate the Lord's statement that He would bring the fulness of His gospel from among the gentile church to the Lord removing a covenantal status from the gentile church?

What if there are some believing gentiles?

The Lord declared the following concerning some few believing gentiles.

But if they will repent, and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance. And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city which shall be called the New Jerusalem. And then shall they assist my people, that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem. And then shall the Powers of Heaven come down among them, and I also will be in the midst. And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem. Yea, the work shall commence among all the dispersed of my people, with the Father to prepare the way whereby they may come unto me, that they may call on the Father in my name. Yea, and then shall the work commence with the Father among all nations, in preparing the way whereby his people may be gathered home to the land of their inheritance. And they shall go out from all nations, and they shall not go out in haste nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward. (3 Nephi 21:22 - 29, NC 3 Nephi 10 par. 1)

Does the Lord here mention a new covenantal status for believing gentiles who repent?

How would I as a gentile be able to receive the covenant the Lord speaks of here?

If anyone desires to know more of this opportunity to repent and come into the new covenant they are welcome to go to www.bornofwater.org.

The Lord has extended a new covenant to the gentiles, all who will repent and believe in Him, and baptism is the first step.

Following baptism the Lord has established the means for every baptized individual to receive and accept His new covenant if they so desire.

This is a glorious time.  The Lord in His mercy to continue His work of vindicating His promises to the ancient Fathers has opened a way for anyone who so desires to overcome the gentile failure of the past.

He has set His hand again the second time to recover Israel and He has invited believing gentiles to become part of the House of Israel in this work that He is doing.

Now, what constitutes the wrath of God?

This question comes because Nephi speaks of the wrath of God being upon the descendants of his brothers.

When the scriptural accounts speak of incurring God's wrath or of a person or people who are under God's wrath what does that entail; how is God's wrath manifest?

There are many instances in the scriptures that talk about the wrath of God.

If we look at one of these instances can we gain an understanding of what God's wrath is and how it is manifest?

The following is Alma speaking to Zeezrom.

Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men — they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal and becoming as Gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good — therefore, God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness. For on such, the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God. But God did call on man in the name of his Son, this being the plan of redemption which was laid, saying, If ye will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine only begotten Son. Therefore, whosoever repenteth and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy, through mine only begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins, and these shall enter into my rest. And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest. And now, my brethren, behold, I say unto you that if ye will harden your hearts, ye shall not enter into the rest of the Lord. Therefore, your iniquity provoketh him, that he sendeth down his wrath upon you as in the first provocation — yea, according to his word in the last provocation, as well as in the first, to the everlasting destruction of your souls; therefore, according to his word unto the last death, as well as the first. (Alma 12:31 - 36, NC Alma 9 par. 8)

Here we see Alma teaching Zeezrom concerning what occurred in the Garden of Eden.

In the Garden of Eden were Adam and Eve in the rest of God or in other words in Their presence?

Once Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit and began to know good from evil what happened to them?

Would this be considered the "first provocation"?

Could we reasonably state that God withdrew from them in the "first provocation"; they, Adam and Eve, were shut out from Their presence?

Is this what Alma was talking about when he referenced people's iniquity provoking God to send down wrath upon the people as in the first provocation?

Doesn't Alma teach here that a plan of redemption was put in place to overcome the "wrath" incurred by the "first provocation"?

What does Alma say?

God did call on man in the name of his Son, this being the plan of redemption which was laid, saying, If ye will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine only begotten Son. Therefore, whosoever repenteth and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy, through mine only begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins, and these shall enter into my rest.

If God's wrath is manifest by Their withdrawal then does the above teaching demonstrate how to remove God's wrath; to come back into Their rest or in other words Their presence or reverse Their withdrawal?

If God's wrath is manifest by Their withdrawal, are there differing levels of God's wrath?

Is Alma here speaking of a further withdrawal as he speaks of a "last death" a "second death" and an "everlasting death" as to things pertaining to righteousness?

Whenever we read in the Book of Mormon that God's spirit ceases to strive with a people or in other words God's spirit withdraws, what happens to that people?

When God's spirit withdraws from a people are they able to build or maintain a cohesive society or do they break apart?

What is the example from the Book of Mormon?

If God is withdrawing Their spirit who's spirit fills that space?

Is it possible for us to experience God's wrath and be totally unaware of it?

...nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 205)

Who does the sweeping off of the people upon the Americas?

Isn't it the people themselves as they begin to get more and more angry at each other?

Does God's wrath upon a people then consist in the withdrawal of Their spirit?

If the descendants of Nephi's brothers were without the spirit of God among them wouldn't that explain their dark and loathsome and filthy state?

Would it be very important for us to consider God's wrath with respect to ourself?

As we look in this paragraph at the Lord bringing the gentiles to the Americas and scattering the descendants of Laman and Lemuel can we see the Lord's word to Lehi being fulfilled in very deed?

Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments, they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them nor to take away the land of their inheritance, and they shall dwell safely for ever. But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord, having a knowledge of the creation of the earth and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world, having power given them to do all things by faith, having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise, behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them. Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten. Yea, as one generation passeth to another, there shall be bloodsheds and great visitations among them. (2 Nephi 1:9 - 12, NC 2 Nephi 1 par. 2)

If we see God bringing other nations here to displace and take away the inheritance of the descendants of Lehi because of their iniquity and Nephi clearly states that God allowed the gentiles to obtain this land for their inheritance, do we think for one moment that the above words of Lehi would not apply to us?

If God does not fulfill Their promise to disinherit the gentiles based upon their iniquity and bring other nations and peoples in to destroy them wouldn't God have to issue an apology to the native tribes who have been scattered and destroyed by the gentiles?

This paragraph describing this part of Nephi's vision clearly and plainly outlines that the gentiles on this land prevailed against their mother gentiles and against all other nations only because the power of God was among them.

Do we think we can violate the laws and commandments of God as a nation and Their power will remain among us?

Shouldn't this part of Nephi's vision and an understanding of God's promises concerning this land and an understanding of Their wrath cause us to quake and tremble and come down to the dust in humility as a nation to repent and work to turn away the wrath of God upon us?

God is not kidding around and we face great peril.

Are we like unto the Nephites where our day of repentance is past; not because God would not accept repentance but because in our wild frenzied blindness we refuse to turn and face God?

Seriously, how could this message not cause us pain concerning our condition as a nation?

Another question that arises with Nephi's account of futurity here is how are the gentiles able to have the spirit of God among them?

Doesn't this part of Nephi's vision predate the restoration?

All my life I was raised hearing the accounts of the early gentiles receiving dreams and visions, and experiencing heavenly visitations, and receiving revelations, and speaking with the gift of prophecy.

I believe these accounts to be true.  

My understanding of Nephi's words here, And I beheld the spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the gentiles, that they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance. and his words I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land to mean that Nephi saw these above mentioned gifts of the spirit manifest among the first gentiles.

We have looked at before the meaning of what it means to "prosper in the land".

My understanding is that is has everything to do with heaven associating with a people and heaven pouring down it's gifts upon a people.

So what does this do to what anyone may think concerning what is required for the spirit of God to work upon and among a people?

How can all of this exist before the beginning of the gospel restoration through the Prophet Joseph?

The Holy Ghost can and does speak to everyone, Baptists, Lutherans, and Catholics included. C.S. Lewis could not have written and comprehended what he wrote and understood, unless the light of the Holy Ghost shown upon his mind. He declares the light of eternal truths in his writings. This is one of the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or Comforter. 

Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice and judgment. (Moses 6:61) 

This is in contrast to the power given by Christ to lay on hands for the Holy Ghost. For power to do that, Christ touched (and must touch) the man given that power. When Christ actually gave power to give the Holy Ghost, the Book of Mormon account stresses repeatedly that He touched them: There is a difference between a visit by the Holy Ghost and having its presence always to be with you. “A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.” (D&C 130:23.) This difference accounts for the Holy Ghost being available to all, on the one hand, and the power to lay on hands to confer the gift given by those upon whom Christ has laid His hands, on the other hand.

Many people believe they have the Holy Ghost with them when their emotions are stirred, or they are thrilled by some appealing talk, comment, praise or flattery. However these incidents do not increase light and truth, comprehension or intelligence and are not the Holy Ghost. They are only emotional experiences. Emotional experiences can be replicated in a number of ways. Music, movies, television commercials, general conference talks, books, testimonies, prayers and any number of physical experiences can create tears, goosebumps, or other things that we have incorrectly associated with the Holy Ghost.

Very often the truth conveyed by the Holy Ghost is hard to hear, difficult to follow, and breaks your heart. Sometimes the truth is bitter. But bitter truth is better than pleasing lies and flattery. It is a profound misunderstanding of the “Holy Ghost” when a person concludes it can never convey a message that condemns, convicts or challenges you. Much of what the Holy Ghost will convey – light and truth – causes pain, provokes change and repentance because you are convicted of errors. 

Alma was tutored by the Holy Ghost and it convicted him of his sins. He described it as “my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.” (Alma 36:14.) “For three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.” (Id., v. 16.) He said “I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins.” (Id., v. 17.) He repented because he received accurate information by the power of the Holy Ghost showing him exactly where he stood before God. This enabled him to repent and return to God. 

It is a mistake to conclude that only good feelings, reassurance and praise comes through the Holy Ghost. It is likewise a profound error to assume a message that challenges you, tells you bad news about your present mistakes, and warns you to change course is dark, evil or cannot be from God.

There is no organization controlling the Holy Ghost.

Missionaries quote Moroni 10:4, and admonish everyone to pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true. Investigators are promised that God will manifest the truth of it unto them “by the power of the Holy Ghost.” These are unbaptized, unwashed, and uninitiated investigators who are told they can hear the Holy Ghost speak truth to them. The Holy Ghost does, can, and will speak to anyone.

The claim an organization has a franchise over the Holy Ghost is hollow. The idea the Holy Ghost can be controlled is false. The fact LDS Mormons are acquainted with the Holy Ghost means very little. That acquaintance does not distinguish Latter-day Saints, and it does not separate others from the Holy Ghost and its ministrations, no matter who they are.

("Thoughts on Holy Ghost, Denver Snuffer, Denvesnuffer.com, 21 January 2015)

This brings up a very important question.

If the Holy Ghost can minister light to anyone what should be considered an "authorized" source for truth?

Can any institution claim that they are the only authorized source of truth?

Should we be careful to not cut ourselves off from truth by excluding a great variety of input from many nations and peoples and affiliations?

Does God speak and has God spoken to more than one group of people at a time by the power of the Holy Ghost?

And because that I have spoken one word, ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another, for my work is not yet finished, neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and for ever. Wherefore, because that ye have a bible, ye need not suppose that it contains all my words, neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. For I command all men, both in the east, and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them. For out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it, and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it. And I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel which I have led away and they shall write it, and I shall also speak unto all the nations of the earth and they shall write it. And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews, and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel, and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews. And it shall come to pass that my people which are of the house of Israel shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions, and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word, and against my people who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed for ever. (2 Nephi  , NC 2 Nephi 12 par. 10)

The Prophet Joseph proclaimed, 

Truth is “Mormonism.” God is the author of it.(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 139)

If this is true then wherever we can find truth is it not the evidence of God working upon or among a person or people by the power of the Holy Ghost?

The following is an excerpt from a paper "Other Sheep Indeed" that sheds great light on this question.

Mormonism announced in its founding book of scripture that it is an incomplete, markedly unfinished religion searching for more truth to achieve its destiny. The completion is to be accomplished primarily by two means: restoring lost scripture and continuing revelation. 

But even the concept of “continuing revelation” has been institutionally curtailed. The only institutionally authorized source for revelation is a single leader. When he is not gifted with that capacity, the concept of “continuing revelation” is given lip service without any substantive proof. For example, minimal organizational adjustments in missionary ages are extolled as “revelation” rather than merely a policy change.  

When using the word “Mormonism” I intend to include every denomination or individual who accepts the Book of Mormon as part of their faith, and not any particular group or institution.  In the Press Conference held during General Conference Elder Jeffrey Holland called the policy change “inspired” and “revelatory.” He explained, “God is hastening His work.” 

Of all faiths, Mormonism has the greatest canonical incentive to search for and embrace truth known to others. The “keystone” of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. That book alerts its readers that there are many others from vastly different places with vastly different scriptures who are nonetheless Christ’s sheep. Book of Mormon readers are expected to search for, welcome and learn from them. In contrast, institutional Mormonism of all stripes confine trustworthy new religious ideas to their authorized leaders. 

Early in the text we learn that our faith, like our scriptures, is unfinished, and to anticipate a flood of additional sacred texts to help remove our ignorance. The portion of the Book of Mormon translated by Joseph Smith is carefully censored, with its greater content withheld.  

2 Nephi 29:11-12 states: For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; …

Obviously the Gods of Mormonism view Their role as all-inclusive. The entire world and all mankind belong to Them.  Their global audience has received and recorded sacred words directly from the Gods’ “one” mouth.  We have no way to define the extent to which that has happened. Nor do we have any concept of the number of sacred records that exist somewhere among unknown others, nor any idea what truths they were given that we lack. 

Mormonism cannot, or at least should not, consider itself the exclusive possessor of THE sacred canon or that there is only one canon containing the Gods’ teachings. There are words from heaven spread throughout our world by the deliberate planting of the Gods. 

Continuing, for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. These “books” hold terrible importance for Mormons because we are going to be judged by the Gods based on a comparison between our “works” and “that which is written.” With such a warning we Mormons ought to be humble about our claims to know more than other faiths. We should be modest in thinking we are especially graced by the Gods’ words and should be anxious to scour the globe to discover the sacred texts of other cultures.  In humility, we should invite them to share the truths they value most with us because we have shown that we will respect what they regard as sacred. 

To clarify this further the record continues, For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; … 

So far this describes a welcome Judeo-Christian boundary because the ancient Israelites are the backbone of the Gods’ dealings with mankind. The Lost Ten Tribes continued to compose scripture, and their records will in time be recovered.  It is the unity of purpose and understanding that makes the Gods “one”.  This passage continues by including yet others who are disconnected from any disclosed connection to Israel: and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it. Who? When? What was said? 

“All nations of the earth” is broad enough to raise the troubling possibility that the Gods have spoken to others in India, Japan and China - to the peoples of Persia, Africa, and Native peoples of the Americas, Hawaii, Polynesia, and Australia. The Jaredite prophet, identified as “the brother of Jared,” had some of the greatest revelation in all history. He lived many centuries before Abraham, and therefore before there were Israelites. We know Egypt was founded “seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the first fathers in the first generation, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam[.]” 

If we take the Book of Mormon seriously, the ecumenicalism of the Gods may have no recognizable or comprehensible limits. The Gods of Mormonism are far more pantheistic than Trinitarian. What a cruel embarrassment that proves to be for any sect that proselytizes primarily among other Christian denominations. Imagining Gods who speak to everyone is troubling enough, but for the Gods to expect Mormons to give high regard, even canonical credibility to the records of these truly “others” begins to buckle the knees and mangle the mantras of today’s Mormons. ("Other Sheep Indeed", Denver Snuffer, Sunstone Symposium 2017, pages 1 - 4)

I would recommend any reader to download a free PDF copy of this address from Denversnuffer.com in the downloads section.

Isn't the Book of Mormon challenging?

Everything put forward by Nephi in this one paragraph concerning his vision raises questions that have very serious present day implications and require us look inside ourselves.

I know for me personally it is a painful thing to measure myself against the perfection that the Book of Mormon presents in the principles it teaches.  But I know it is necessary for me to experience this pain or I will never awake from my deep sleep.