And it came to pass that the spirit said unto me, Look. And I looked and beheld a tree, and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty, and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow. And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the spirit, I behold thou hast shewn unto me the tree which is most precious above all. And he said unto me, What desireth thou? And I said unto him, To know the interpretation thereof — for I spake unto him as a man speaketh, for I beheld that he was in the form of a man. Yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.
The Stick of Joseph, 1 Nefi 3 par. 7
And it came to pass that the spirit said unto me, Look. And I looked and beheld a tree, and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yes, exceeding of
all beauty, and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow. And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the spirit, I behold you have shown unto me the tree which is most precious above all. And he said unto me, What do you desire? And I said unto him, To know the interpretation thereof — for I spoke unto him as a man speaks, for I beheld that he was in the form of a man. Yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the spirit of yhwh; and he spoke unto me as a man speaks with another.
After Nephi is shown the symbol of the tree he desires to know what the interpretation of the symbol is.
Based on my present understanding of this event, I believe that much of what is shown to Nephi hereafter in the vision is given to allow Nephi to understand what the symbol of the tree means.
Before moving forward with that could we consider the next statement by Nephi?
Again, I believe that what has been recorded for our view is very deliberate and maybe ought to be looked into.
for I spake unto him as a man speaketh, for I beheld that he was in the form of a man. Yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.
What is the "spirit of the Lord"?
I readily confess I am at a complete loss here because my understanding of the Lord from the Book of Abraham and from the experience of the brother of Jared is that at this time, with Nephi, the Lord has a physical body.
I am asking this following question because I would like some understanding and I truly don't know if it applies.
Is it possible that Nephi's statement that he is conversing with the spirit of the Lord who is in the form of a man is related to what the Lord declared concerning things being created first spiritually and then temporally?
...For by the power of my spirit created I them, yea, all things both spiritual and temporal, firstly spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work. And again, firstly temporal and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work, speaking unto you that you may naturally understand, but unto myself, my work has no end neither beginning; but it is given unto you that you may understand, because you have asked it of me and are agreed. (D&C 29:32, T&C 9 par. 9)
We know from what Joseph taught that a soul is a spirit and a body united.
We know from the book of Abraham that Christ was in the midst of those who were souls before the creation of this world.
That means that He had a physical body.
Could we rightly say that His body was not temporal even though it was physical?
Before condescending to come to earth wouldn't His body have been animated purely by the spirit; a spiritual body?
Isn't that eternal in nature?
Would that be why the Lord to Joseph specifically differentiated between creating things first spiritually and then temporally instead of saying first spiritually and then physically?
As Nephi is speaking here, is it possible that he is saying that he is speaking with the Lord as one man speaks to another man and that the Lord has a physical body even before His birth; he is in the form of a man?
Is Nephi acknowledging here that at this point he can see that the Lord's physical body is more glorious or different than a temporal body that Nephi is in?
What was the brother of Jared's experience?
And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood. And the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear. And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth, and the Lord said unto him, Arise. Why hast thou fallen? And he saith unto the Lord, I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me, for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood. And the Lord said unto him, Because of thy faith, thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood. And none of those now living have come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast, for were it not so, ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this? And he answered, Nay, Lord. Shew thyself unto me. And the Lord said unto him, Believest thou the words which I shall speak? And he answered, Yea, Lord. I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth and canst not lie.
And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord shewed himself unto him and said, Because thou knowest these things, ye are redeemed from the Fall. Therefore, ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I shew myself unto you. Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life; and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name. And they shall become my sons and my daughters. And to none of those now living whom I created have I appeared, for none have believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body which ye now behold is the body of my spirit. And man have I created after the body of my spirit. And even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:6 - 16, NC Ether 1 pars. 12 - 13)
When the brother of Jared explains what he saw he says "and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood"
Wouldn't this mean that the brother of Jared is seeing a physical body?
Wouldn't it be "like unto" flesh and blood because it was physical but it was not temporal so the Lord explained that the physical body He was appearing in, to the brother of Jared, was His spirit (spiritual) body?
The Lord explained to the brother of Jared that He would come down (condescend) and take upon Himself "flesh and blood" or a temporal body.
The reason I wonder about all of this above is because of Nephi's specific statement that he conversed with the spirit of the Lord as one man speaketh with another.
That wording is familiar and I have seen it several times in the scriptures in relation to individuals speaking about their conversations with the Lord.
Here is Moroni's experience.
And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren, whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another, in mine own language, concerning these things. And only a few have I written because of my weakness in writing. And now I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you for ever. Amen. (Ether 12:38 - 41, NC Ether 5 par. 8)
Here Moroni uses wording very similar to Nephi as he talks about his conversation with the Lord, he declares "he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another,".
Isn't this wording equal in meaning to what Nephi expressed?
Another thing that Moroni mentions is that they talked face to face.
Where else can this type of description be found?
Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord face to face, as one man talks with another, and he told me of the works which his hands had made. And he said unto me, My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold, I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon my eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many, and they multiplied before my eyes and I could not see the end thereof. And he said unto me, This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me, Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me, Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me, Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights which were in the firmament of heaven. (Abraham 3:11 - 13, T&C Section 145, The Book of Abraham 5 par. 3)
Abraham also uses the phrasing, as one man talks with another. Also, like Moroni he mentions face to face.
I knew a man in Christ about four years ago who, being overshadowed by the spirit on the 26th of February, 2005, had the Lord appear to him again. And the Lord spoke to him face to face in plain humility, as one man speaks to another, calling him by name. As they spoke the Lord put forth His hand and touched the eyes of the man and said, Look! The man had opened before him a view of the Lord kneeling in prayer. It was in a dark place. The air was heavy and overcast with sorrow. The man beheld the Lord praying in Gethsemene on the night of His betrayal and before His crucifixion. (Teachings and Commandments, Section 161 par. 1)
The above is from the account of another prophet of God Denver Snuffer.
Notice again the same phrasing.
And the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks unto his friend.... (Exodus 33:11 - 16, OC Exodus 18 par. 2)
Here we have it again with Moses.
I know that there are many more accounts that emphasize speaking with the Lord face to face as one man speaks with another but the above ought to suffice to demonstrate that there is something compelling that we ought to find out concerning speaking with the Lord face to face as one person speaks with another.
Does this phrasing of words have anything to do with what the prophet Joseph said below?
The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of
this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the
remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first
Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after
righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou
shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined
to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it
will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as
is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.
Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses:
“16. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with
you forever;
“17. Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither
knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
“18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. * *
“21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them he it is that loveth me: and he that
loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
“23. If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come
unto him, and make our abode with him.”
Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pages 150 - 151)
As we look at Nephi's account, would it match with one having the second comforter that the prophet Joseph described above?
When these phrasings are recorded in scripture are they put there to bring to our attention that this is the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ to bring us to the point in this life where we are able to converse with Him face to face as one man converses with another?
If Nephi was conversing with the Lord here would this constitute the Lord ministering to Nephi?
Would this be a one-time occurrence or would it be from time to time as the prophet Joseph points out?
Were the heavens open to Nephi's view here?
Did Nephi eventually come to have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God?
Are we all to receive and search for such things?
What did the prophet Joseph have to say on the matter?
I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 364)
Isn't this what God intended from the beginning?
Two important items are shown from the former quotations: First, after man was created, he was not left without intelligence or understanding, to wander in darkness and spend an existence in ignorance and doubt — on the great and important point which affected his happiness — as to the real fact by whom he was created, or unto whom he was amenable for his conduct. God conversed with him face to face: in his presence he was permitted to stand, and from his own mouth he was permitted to receive instruction — he heard his voice, walked before him, and gazed upon his glory while intelligence burst upon his understanding and enabled him to give names to the vast assemblage of his Maker’s works. (Teachings and Commandments, Section 110, Lectures on Faith, Lecture 2 par. 18)
From the beginning man learned from God face to face.
The following is about the term "Knowledge" in the Glossary of Terms in the Teachings and Commandments.
To have been visited by the Lord. Faith was always intended to grow into knowledge. Knowledge comes from contact with Jesus Christ (see Ether 1:14). This is the knowledge that saves and nothing else (see John 9:18). The idea that knowledge of Christ — through His personal appearance to each person — is now unavailable is an old sectarian notion and is false (see John 9:8). “Knowing God is Christ’s definition of Eternal life and salvation. Joseph Smith clarified this does not mean to learn something about Him. Rather, it is to meet Him. It is to have Him minister to you, face to face, as one man speaks to another.” Since this is life Eternal, to know Him, would it be a simple and plain, but most precious teaching to urge people to part the veil of unbelief and behold their Lord? (see John 9:18).
Is it possible that the phrasing of speaking with the Lord face to face as one man speaks with another is placed in scripture precisely to drive home the point that to do so is necessary for salvation and Eternal life?
Let us here observe that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch, the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God and power with him to behold him face to face. (Teachings and Commandments, Section 110, Lectures on Faith, Lecture 2 par. 55)
Wasn't the brother of Jared informed by the Lord that it was because he had seen the Lord face to face that he had been redeemed from the fall?
And now come, says the Lord by the spirit unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together that you may understand. Let us reason even as a man reasons, one with another, face to face. Now, when a man reasons he is understood of man because he reasons as a man; even so will I the Lord reason with you that you may understand... (D&C 50:10 - 16, T&C 36 par. 3)
Can't we see in the above scripture that the Lord is inviting us to reason together with Him face to face even as a man reasons with another in order that we may understand?
Charity never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are tongues, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a mirror, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abides faith, hope, charity — these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1 Corinthians 13:8 - 13, NC 1 Corinthians 1 par. 53)
Wasn't Paul, speaking from experience, speaking of the ministering of the Second Comforter; "that which is perfect" (Christ) coming?
Before His coming to us personally do we not see through a mirror darkly until we speak with Him face to face and He is able to help us to come to know as we are also known?
If this understanding of what is happening to Nephi is correct then is it important to understand and apply personally the principles Nephi applied to arrive at this point?
Is Nephi's statement here another witness meant for us that this process is real and it is "how great things" the Lord does?
Is the Book of Mormon similar to a parable with meaning upon meaning, upon meaning; sometimes hidden in symbols and easily passed over if we just quickly glance at what is being spoken?
I have passed by these things quickly so many times. I hope to gain greater personal understanding this time. I hope to obtain for myself the very same blessings.
Wouldn't it be a marvelous world if we all obtained these very same blessings?
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