Nephi's Reign and Ministry Begins part 2

1 Nephi 10:1, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 1


And now I, Nephi, proceed to give an account upon these plates of my proceedings and my reign and ministry; wherefore, to proceed with mine account, I must speak somewhat of the things of my father and also of my brethren.

What is happening at this point in Nephi's life that is the final qualification for him to be "sent" to his brothers as a "ruler and a teacher"?

Is it important to look at what is happening here when Nephi says, "wherefore, to proceed with mine account, I must speak somewhat of the things of my father and also of my brethren."?

What is happening here with Nephi's father and Nephi's brethren?

Isn't Lehi prophesying to Nephi's brethren concerning the things that he, Lehi, has seen; things that will come to pass down to the final winding-up scenes on this earth?

I would imagine that it is important that we know concerning Lehi's prophecies because the Lord intends to vindicate all of His words spoken by His holy prophets, but is it important for another reason that an account of Lehi's prophesying to Nephi's brethren is included here?

Is it possible to see something from the record of this exchange that lets us know one of the qualifications to be "sent"?

Can we compare Lehi's experience and Nephi's experience to see if they match up?

What was Lehi required to receive in order to be qualified to be "sent"?

Wherefore, it came to pass that my father Lehi, as he went forth, prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart in behalf of his people. And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him, and he saw and heard much. And because of the things which he saw and heard, he did quake and tremble exceedingly. And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem. And he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the spirit and the things which he had seen. And being thus overcome with the spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the Heavens open and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God. And it came to pass that he saw one descending out of the midst of Heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noonday. And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament. And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth. And the first came and stood before my father and gave unto him a book and bade him that he should read. And it came to pass that as he read he was filled with the spirit of the Lord. And he read, saying, Woe, woe unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations. Yea, and many things did my father read concerning Jerusalem: that it should be destroyed and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword and many should be carried away captive into Babylon. And it came to pass that when my father had read and saw many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord, such as, Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the Heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish! And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God, for his soul did rejoice and his whole heart was filled because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shewn unto him. (1 Nephi 1:5 - 15, NC 1 Nephi 1 par. 3)

Following this experience, we read concerning Lehi,

Therefore, I would that ye should know that after the Lord had shewn so many marvelous things unto my father Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold, he went forth among the people and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. (1 Ne. 1:18-20, NC 1 Nephi 1 par. 5)

What was the order of these events?

1) Could we reasonably state that Lehi believed the words of the Lord as sent by His Holy Prophets, that Lehi humbled himself and repented, and that Lehi came to a point that he felt to intercede for his people? (Nephi began the record speaking of the many prophets coming to Jerusalem and we see Lehi interceding for his people after believing the words of those prophets.)

2)Could we reasonably state that Lehi has come into the presence of the Lord? (a pillar of fire dwelling on a rock where Lehi saw and heard much)

3)Could we reasonably state that Lehi was prepared by the Lord to come into the presence of the Father and then he was brought into the Father's presence and made part of the Family of God?

4)Could we reasonably state that Lehi has been shown the history of the world and the coming of the Messiah and all things to the end?

After these things occurred Lehi was "sent".  The record clearly states that it was then that Lehi "began to prophesy."

Is this when Lehi's "reign and ministry" began?

Does Nephi's experience in any way mirror the experience of his father?

For purposes of the discussion, I would like to again state that my understanding of the word repent is that it means to turn more and more to face God.

The following is from the glossary of terms in the Teachings and Commandments under Repent/ance

A “change” requiring believers to turn away from the world and toward God. It is the change in life that follows from seeing things in a better, truer light. There is another, higher way to live available to everyone. But to move upward, people must make changes in their lives to incorporate more light and truth. By living a higher way, they are repenting. This process is not a single event. It does not happen once. It should happen over and over as all increase the light in their lives.1 Repentance is granted by God (see Alma 10:4; 19:15; Acts 6:9). It involves acquiring light and truth — meaning intelligence. Repentance is abandoning a foolish error, a vain tradition, or a false belief and replacing it with truth.2 Penitence is another way to describe repentance (or the process of change and growing beyond sins that limit your happiness). It comes as you allow Christ to “succor” you through the power of the atonement. Through penitence, people do away with the darkness in their lives and add light instead.3 Repentance is turning away from all other distractions to face God.4

To repent is to turn to Him. To turn to Him is to face Him, listen to Him, heed Him, and pay attention to what He is, says, and does. It is to seek to be in contact with Him. If one is in contact with Him, He will teach him all things he should do (see 2 Nephi 14:1). “Constant contact between you and [God] can and will occupy your desires, thoughts and deeds. But turning to face Him is left to you. He cannot enter where He is not invited. He may want to be a part of your life more than you want Him to. It is your choice to let Him in. Hearing alone will not save you. Doing is the thing which saves.”

When I refer to Lehi repenting and Nephi repenting this is what I personally am thinking of.

1) Did Nephi experience repentance and humility and did he arrive at a point where he felt to intercede for his brethren?

2)Did Nephi come into the presence of the Lord? (1 Nephi 2:19 - 20, NC 1 Nephi 1 par. 9)

3)Was Nephi brought into the presence of the Father and made a member of the Family of God?

I believe so.

I base my belief on Nephi's recorded conversations with both the Lord and the Father together.

As an example,

But behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying, After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the holy ghost, and can speak with a new tongue — yea, even with the tongue of angels — and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father saying, Yea, the words of my beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
(2 Nephi 31:14 - 18, NC 2 Nephi 13 par. 3)

In fact, I have wondered if this conversation took place while Nephi was receiving his great vision of all things.

Nephi recorded that he saw the baptism of the Lamb of God in his vision.

Is it possible that in the section of the record, further along, Nephi is now commanded to expand the record by setting down more details of what he, Nephi, saw and heard concerning the part of his vision that showed the Lord's baptism?

I am aware of other incidents in scripture where the individual receiving a vision and/or revelation is only allowed to record a certain part of the vision at one point and then later they are commanded to expand the record of what they viewed on a part here or there of the vision/revelation that they received.

I have wondered if Nephi was not allowed to describe his experience coming into the presence of the Father like his father Lehi did.

Part of the reason I have wondered this is because of what Nephi declared in the following,

For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way and receive the holy ghost, it will shew unto you all things what ye should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.And now I, Nephi, cannot say more. The spirit stoppeth mine utterance and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men. For they will not search knowledge nor understand great knowledge when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be. (2 Nephi 32:1 - 7, NC 2 Nephi 14 pars. 1 - 2)

Right after Nephi tells us plainly that when Christ appears to us in the flesh (mortality) that then we need to do what He is telling us to do personally, then Nephi is constrained to stop his utterance.

Then Nephi exhorts us to pray always in order to come to an understanding of what he is presenting here.

If what Christ declared is true, that no one comes to the Throne of the Father without Him, then is Nephi being restricted here from revealing his own experience; what Christ personally instructed Nephi to do, in the flesh (mortality), so that Nephi could come before the Throne of the Father?

Is all of this indicative that Nephi did, in fact, enter into the Father's presence?

4)Did Nephi also receive a vision of all things with respect to the earth?

Could we reasonably state that Nephi's experience of becoming qualified to have a "reign and a ministry" mirrors Lehi's experience?

Would it be reasonable to expect that if the above is a true pattern that the Prophet Joseph followed the pattern as well?

Can we detect that preparation was required for the Prophet Joseph before he had a "reign and a ministry"?

And you have a gift to translate the plates, and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you. And I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this, for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. (D&C 5:4, T&C 1, Joseph Smith History, part 12 par. 1)

Is this the process the Lord was referring to when He told Hyrum that it was not yet time for him to preach?

Behold, this is your work: to keep my commandments, yea, with all your might, mind, and strength. Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosened. Then, if you desire, you shall have my spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men. But now hold your peace, study my word which has gone forth among the children of men, and also study my word which shall come forth among the children of men, or that which is now translating, yea, until you have obtained all which I shall grant unto the children of men in this generation, and then shall all things be added thereunto. (D&C 11:20 - 22, T&C 1 Joseph Smith History Part 14 par.14)

Is this experience Nephi is going to having what will complete Nephi's obtaining the Lord's word so that his tongue can be loosed and he will qualify to receive the power of God unto the convincing of men?

Had Hyrum come up to the level where he could be "sent" and have a "reign and a ministry" when the Lord declared the following?

And again, verily I say unto you that my servant William be appointed, ordained, and anointed as a counselor unto my servant Joseph, in the room of my servant Hyrum, that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father by blessing, and also by right, that from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the Patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people, that whoever he blesses shall be blessed and whoever he curses shall be cursed, that whatever he shall bind on the earth shall be bound in Heaven, and that whatever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph, that he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph, and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessings. I crown upon his head the bishopric, and blessing, and glory, and honor, and Priesthood, and gifts of the Priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery, that my servant Hyrum may bear record of the things which I shall show unto him, that his name may be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation for ever and ever. (D&C 124:91 - 96, T&C 141 par. 32)

If this really is a true pattern, is this pattern being shown to us in the Book of Mormon so that we can use it to identify pretenders and frauds who come claiming to have a word from God?

Would it be important to be able to detect these fraudulent individuals?

Is there a difference, following Nephi's vision, between Nephi and his brothers with respect to Nephi teaching them?

How did Nephi share things with his brothers before his vision?

Did that change after?

Did Nephi prophesy before this vision?

What about teaching his brethren?

Did Nephi "teach" his brethren before the vision or did he show an example and exhort them to remember what had been spoken by the Holy Prophets, one of which was their father, Lehi?

What about immediately after his vision?

Is it important to see that what Lehi was teaching and prophesying to Nephi's brethren led to the very first time where Nephi ministered to his brothers?

Wasn't it questions about what Lehi had spoken that began Nephi's initial assignment?

What do we have recorded concerning Nephi teaching or ministering to his brothers after the vision?

And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold, they said unto me, Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than which we are able to bear. And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked according to the truth, and the righteous have I justified and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day. Wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center. And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth and say, Thou speakest hard things against us. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord. And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness. Now all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the valley which he called Lemuel. (1 Nephi 16:1 - 6, NC 1 Nephi 5 par. 1)

Could it be said that Nephi now has the power of God unto the convincing of men.?

His teachings, at this time, caused Laman and Lemuel to humble themselves before the Lord.

Are Nephi's feelings of great hopes for his brothers indicative of the feelings that one who possesses a hope in Christ would have for those they are sent to minister to?

If someone is to be "sent" with a "reign and a ministry", in order for them to be able to speak with the power of God unto the convincing of men do they need to see this vision in order to be able to understand how everything fits together because they will have then both seen and heard these things and be able to testify of them?

Do the events like the ones experienced by Lehi and by Nephi and all those who have been sent, (Adam and Eve, Enoch, Moses, Isaiah, and the Brother of Jared all come to mind immediately in terms of having mirroring experiences recorded in scripture) in a word cement the connections of these individuals to the mind of God for those who come up to receive these things?

Is it the powerful connection that those who have experienced these things have with the mind of God that allows them to have convincing power?

As always, there is so much to consider here but one other thing that has impressed me is the fact that Nephi, as far as I can tell from the record, does not blurt out what he has seen to his brothers other than to give some clarifications concerning what Lehi saw.

Nephi used the same comparisons of the olive tree and the scriptures as far as I can tell to teach them even though he could explain much much more.

To me this matches a principle taught by Alma and it shows meekness.

And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying, It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless, they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart — only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. (Alma 12:9 - 11, NC Alma 9 par. 3)

This is included in the explanation of the term Meekness in the Glossary of Terms

Meekness affects a person’s relationship with his fellow man. There is nothing showy or attention-grabbing about the meek. Instead, they are content to know they have a relationship and power with God. Unless God requires something to be done or revealed, the meek do not voluntarily put this authority on display.

These thoughts are my understanding of things at present.

I believe them to be true as far as I understand the scriptures and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith right now.

As with everything I have shared I hope it is understood that I do not put this or anything else forward as being totally or even partially "right".

This understanding makes sense to me.  It tastes delicious to me so to speak.

I fully expect to repent if I humble myself.  I hope to receive greater and greater light so that I can become more and more connected to the mind of God.

I hope through repentance to be able to see much more clearly so that my views will become clearer and I can have greater enjoyments until I will be able to understand the ways of God; His great mysteries.

With our little study group and with this blog I am coming to see that the Book of Mormon really is preeminent above all scripture as far as I can tell.

If even a little of my understanding is correct anyone who follows this path will find themselves ascending until they come before God and receive the very same blessings that Nephi and all who have ascended have received.

Nephi's Reign and Ministry Begins part 1

1 Nephi 10:1, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 1


And now I, Nephi, proceed to give an account upon these plates of my proceedings and my reign and ministry; wherefore, to proceed with mine account, I must speak somewhat of the things of my father and also of my brethren.

Is this the record of the moment in time when Nephi is "sent" as a minister to his brothers?

Remember what the Lord told Nephi earlier?

And inasmuch as thou shalt keep my commandments thou shalt be made a ruler and a teacher over thy brethren. (1 Nephi 2:21 - 42, NC 1 Nephi 1 par. 9)

Is this an indication that Nephi is receiving his errand from the Lord?

Nephi is particular to use the terms reign and ministry why?

I would like to copy here a part of an earlier post to explain my understanding, at present of one like Nephi beginning their "reign and ministry."

Nephi is further told that if he keeps the Lord's commandments that he will be made a ruler and a teacher over his brethren.

There are two things that come to my mind with this statement.

1) Nephi was chosen before he was born.  He was one of the souls who condescended to come down to save others.

"Now the Lord had shewn unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was, and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones.  And God saw these souls, that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them and he said, These I will make my rulers." (Abraham 3:22 - 23, T&C 145 Abraham 6 par. 1)

Our understanding of a ruler in God's terms is a teacher seeking to persuade all men to work righteousness before God.

"And I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people.  And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.  And this is the manner after which they were ordained:  Being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil, therefore they having chosen good and exercising exceeding great faith are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with and according to a preparatory redemption for such...And thus being called by this holy calling and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest,..." (Alma 13:1 - 3, NC Alma 9 par. 10)

2) Those who are priests after this order, teachers of righteousness, His rulers, have dominion.

This is how God interprets dominion.

"...the word "dominion" in the understanding of the gentile can convey the impression of a prison warden exercising control over captives.  I think the word "dominion" should be understood instead to convey the idea of a gardener who is responsible for making the garden thrive, grow and bear fruit.  To be clear, the three greatest examples of wielding "dominion" in the correct manner as we should understand it are, first: Christ, who is probably without any peer, unquestionably the greatest example of one holding the greatest dominion, and who also likewise showed the greatest example of how to wield dominion.  He beseeched people to believe.  He pled with them for their own good.  He knelt to serve them.  He denied that He had a kingdom of this world. (John 18:36)  He tried to prepare people for a better one.  But He was more intelligent than they all and He was the greatest of them all. (Abr. 3:19)  Unquestionably holding the greatest dominion and He wore it as a light thing.  His yoke was easy. (Matt. 11:30)
In this world, Adam, after Christ held the greatest dominion. (Gen. 1:26 -28)  But Adam taught and pled and instructed (Moses 5:12) but did not abridge the agency of his children, even when one of his sons killed another of his sons.  Adam did not execute Cain.  Cain was sent away.  Adam held dominion, but he exercised it like our Lord, pleading for the interest of others.  Adam invited and solicited all to obey God, hoping for their best interests.
The third great example of holding dominion in a godly way was Moses.  He is called in scripture "meek above all men which were upon the face of the earth." (Num. 12:3) and yet gentiles depict him as a bully and strongman.  Moses saw no reason to be jealous when others were out prophesying.  "Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them." (Num. 11:26 - 29)  Moses, like Adam and Christ, is an example of how the word dominion should be understood.
All three were gardeners responsible for trying to make their garden thrive, grow and bear fruit.  In reality, those who have held the greatest dominion given by God have invariably lived lives of meekness and service.  They were opposite of what gentiles regard as a strongman.  They were the opposite of a dictator or boss.  They were more like loving grandfathers, gentle gardeners, and encouraging friends -- trying to get the best from those who would allow them to teach." (Things to Keep Us Awake at Night, Denver Snuffer, St George Conference, Mar. 2017, pg. 19)

A really big question that comes to my mind with respect to all who have held dominion, all who were called to have a "reign and a ministry" here on the earth, is who were they before they condescended to come here?

The Prophet Joseph said the following and I wonder if it applies to all who have had a "reign and ministry" on the earth?

I will refer to another Scripture. “Now,” says God, when He visited Moses in the bush,2 (Moses was a stammering sort of a boy like me) God said, “Thou shalt be a God unto the children of Israel.” God said, “Thou shalt be a God unto Aaron, and he shall be thy spokesman.” I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, “Abba, Father!” Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg. 375)

Are all of these individuals, who Joseph states are "sons of God" and can cry "Abba, Father", who have exalted themselves to be Gods, even before the foundation of the world those who sit on Thrones and are part of the Family of God?

That would include their wives as well, if it is so, because there is no throne without a husband and a wife together on that throne.

Are these the Elohim?

The next verse in the book of Abraham following the Lord designating His rulers and teachers states,

And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him, We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell. And we will prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them. And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon, and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. (Abraham 3:24 - 26, T&C 145 The Book of Abraham 6 par. 2)

Here in the book of Abraham we are told that the Lord told His rulers and teachers "We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell."

The key phrase here is "We will go down".

And then the Lord said, Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning and they organized and formed (that is, the Gods) the heavens and the earth.(Abraham 4:1, T&C 145 The Book of Abraham, 7 par. 1)

Here in the Book of Abraham, we see that the rulers and teachers, those who were selected to condescend to have a "reign and ministry" on the earth, were as Joseph declared, Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even before the foundation of the world.

If I understand that correctly, they are in fact part of the Elohim who condescended to come here to preach righteousness; the acceptable day of the Lord or in other words faith in Christ that we might too enter into His rest and become Sons of God as well; members of the Family of God.

That would be how they "prove them (us) herewith to see if they (we) will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them (us)."

Does our response to the message they have been "sent" with determine if we "prove" ourselves to see if we will do all things whatsoever the Lord our God shall command us?

This leads to another thought concerning all the peoples of the earth.

Surely, if God loves every person on the earth equally, then the same pattern of the Elohim condescending to have a "reign and a ministry" to peoples all over the world must apply wouldn't it?

I have read and agree with the following which is part of a presented paper, which to me, suggests that this is just such the case.

Mormonism cannot, or at least should not, consider itself the exclusive possessor of THE sacred canon or that there is only one canon containing the Gods’ teachings. There are words from heaven spread throughout our world by the deliberate planting of the Gods.  Continuing, for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.  These “books” hold terrible importance for Mormons because we are going to
be judged by the Gods based on a comparison between our “works” and “that which is written.” With such a warning we Mormons ought to be humble about our claims to know more than other faiths. We should be modest in thinking we are especially graced by the Gods’ words and should be anxious to scour the globe to discover the sacred texts of other cultures. In humility, we should invite them to share the truths they value most with us because we have shown that we will respect what they regard as sacred.  To clarify this further the record continues, For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; … So far this describes a welcome Judeo-Christian boundary because the ancient Israelites are the backbone of the Gods’ dealings with mankind. The Lost Ten Tribes continued to compose scripture, and their records will in time be recovered. 
This passage continues by including yet others who are disconnected from any disclosed connection to Israel: and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it. Who? When? What was said? “All nations of the earth” is broad enough to raise the troubling possibility that the Gods have spoken to others in India, Japan and China - to the peoples of Persia, Africa, and Native peoples of the Americas, Hawaii, Polynesia, and Australia. The Jaredite prophet, identified as “the brother of Jared,” had some of the greatest revelation in all history. He lived many centuries before Abraham, and therefore before there were Israelites. We know Egypt was founded “seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the first fathers in the first generation, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam[.]”  If we take the Book of Mormon seriously, the ecumenicalism of the Gods may have no recognizable or comprehensible limits. The Gods of
Mormonism are far more pantheistic than Trinitarian. What a cruel embarrassment that proves to be for any sect that proselytizes primarily among other Christian denominations. Imagining Gods who speak to everyone is troubling enough, but for the Gods to expect Mormons to give high regard,
even canonical credibility to the records of these truly “others” begins to buckle the knees and mangle the mantras of today’s Mormons. ("Other Sheep Indeed", Denver Snuffer, Presentation at Salt Lake City Sunstone Symposium 2017, pages 3 - 4)

Is it possible that the "deliberate planting of the Gods", referring to God's teachings all over the world, is done by members of the Elohim, the souls who were chosen as rulers and teachers before the foundation of the earth, condescending to come to all peoples or cultures or nations,even those  unknown to us, to have a "reign and a ministry" among them?

Is it possible that they receive(d) their errands from the Lord, following the same pattern as Nephi, Lehi, and Jacob, and they keep (kept) their records which will be brought forth and become one in Christ with every other record that has been kept so that out of the books we may be judged?

Can we comprehend what a condescension it is for a member of the Elohim to descend to a telestial earth and live a telestial life and "stand in jeopardy every hour" (1 Corinthians 15:30, NC Corinthians 1 par. 64) after having already come to the Throne of God before the foundations of the earth?

My understanding is that even a member of the Elohim may fall and lose everything as they sacrifice by returning to a telestial world on a saving mission.

What kind of sacrifice is such a commitment?

How should we (I) feel about the message that a member of the Elohim has condescended to sacrifice and stand in jeopardy every hour in order to deliver it to me?

Does this make it more abundantly clear why I stand under much greater condemnation for rejecting such a message when a member of the Elohim has sacrificed so very much to deliver it?

Is this why the children of Israel received such condemnation after Siani and the gentile church after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum?

Is this why Joseph could rightly proclaim, "You don’t know me; you never knew my heart.  No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don’t blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 361)

Could he not undertake to tell it because it would entail a description of who he was before the foundation of the earth (part of the Elohim?) and that would be speaking things unlawful for man to hear or that which mortal man is incapable of speaking?

What kind of love does this type of sacrifice demonstrate?

My understanding is that none of this takes away from the sacrifice of Christ who is the only one in this round who descended below all in order to lift all.

The callings of the other members of the Elohim to sacrifice is a type that points to Christ, just like Alma taught.

And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.  And this is the manner after which they were ordained:  Being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God,

My understanding is that even the Elohim who have condescended to come and sacrifice in order to preach faith on Christ, are also reliant upon Christ to be able to return and "take up" their life again among the Elohim.

Does this bring greater meaning to what Joseph taught in the Lectures on Faith concerning sacrifice?

Let us here observe that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation. For from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life, and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.
It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him. (Teachings and Commandments, Section 110, Lecture 6th, pars. 7 - 8)

Is this principle of sacrificing all things an eternal principle even among the Elohim, Christ coming to perform the final sacrifice that must be performed by all who would be like Him?

Would such a pattern of the Elohim condescending to come and have a "reign and ministry" among us give greater meaning to what the Lord declared,

And he put forth a parable unto them concerning those who were bid to a wedding, for he knew how they chose out the chief rooms and exalted themselves one above another. Wherefore, he spoke unto them, saying, When you are bid of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room, lest a more distinguished man than you should be bid of him, and he who bid you, with him who is more distinguished, come and say to you, Give this man place, and you begin with shame to take the lowest room. But when you are bid, go and sit down in the lowest room, that when he who bid you comes, he may say unto you, Friend, go up higher. Then shall you have honor of God in the presence of them who sit at a meal with you. For whoever exalts himself shall be abased, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted. (Luke 14:7 - 11,NC Luke 9 par. 5)

Is it an eternal principle that in order to move through the heavens and learn how to become gods, as Joseph stated, we must abase ourselves by sacrifice both here and throughout the eternities in order to be exalted more and more until we arrive at the point where we are capable of abasing ourselves, even as our Lord, and descend below all things in order to be in all things and through all things we create, even as He is now in all and through all that He has created?

The Lectures say clearly that Christ is the prototype of the saved man and if anyone would be saved they must be exactly like Christ or not be saved.

Can we (I) truly understand the love and sacrifice that is shown by such a program established before the foundation of the earth to provide an opportunity for the advancement of the human family?

It boggles my mind and I can only declare How great is your goodness and mercy Lord, and also give thanks that other Sons of God, members of the Elohim, were and are also willing to condescend and sacrifice to deliver the glad tidings to men.

I didn't know this would go so long I will have to take this paragraph concerning the beginning of Nephi's reign and ministry in parts.

These Plates are for a Special Purpose

1 Nephi 9:2 - 6, NC 1 Nephi 2 par. 14


And now as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold, they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name. And these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people. And upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reigns of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people. Wherefore, these plates are for the more part of the ministry, and the other plates are for the more part of the reigns of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people. Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not. But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men. For behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen.

Is the above what is happening as recorded in 2 Nephi 5:30 - 34, NC 2 Nephi 4 par. 6?

And it came to pass that the Lord God said unto me, Make other plates; and thou shalt engraven many things upon them which are good in my sight for the profit of thy people. Wherefore, I, Nephi, to be obedient to the commandments of the Lord, went and made these plates upon which I have engraven these things. And I engravened that which is pleasing unto God. And if my people are pleased with the things of God, they will be pleased with mine engravings which are upon these plates. And if my people desire to know the more particular part of the history of my people, they must search mine other plates. And it sufficeth me to say that forty years had passed away, and we had already had wars and contentions with our brethren.

If it is then isn't Nephi writing these words in the Americas?

If so wouldn't he be writing these things after having seen the vision of all things to the end?

If that is the case how can Nephi say this?

Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not.

Here is why I wonder about this.

And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying, Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel (and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father), wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment and smitten them by the hand of the gentiles, and after that the gentiles do stumble exceedingly because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which has been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb, I will be merciful unto the gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them in mine own power much of my gospel which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. For behold, saith the Lamb, I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious. And after thy seed shall be destroyed and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up to come forth unto the gentiles by the gift and power of the Lamb. And in them shall be written my gospel, saith the Lamb, and my rock and my salvation. And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the holy ghost. And if they endure unto the end, they shall be lifted up at the last day and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb. Yea, whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be! (1 Nephi 13:38 - 42, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 24)

Wasn't Nephi told about this record being made and coming forth to the Gentiles?

If it was in vision didn't Nephi see the coming forth of the record he is inscribing?

I have heard that this verse shows how God knew that Martin Harris would lose the original translated manuscript and this record is the one that would replace what was lost.

If this is so, wouldn't Nephi have seen that happen in his vision as he witnessed the record coming forth to the Gentiles?

Because I believe Nephi and I also believe what Nephi said concerning the Lord that He "knoweth all things from the beginning,; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men.", there must be an explanation that addresses this question.

One thought that does come to mind as I have read of others' visions is this.

Just because someone is shown something in vision does that mean they will understand it immediately?

When the Lord recently answered the prayer for accepting the corrected scriptures He included a replacement account for a damaged account found in section 110 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

The following is part of what the Lord revealed that Joseph and Oliver were shown in the Kirtland temple.

As this vision closed, the Heavens were again opened to their view, and they saw and beheld, and were endowed with knowledge from the beginning of this creation to the ends thereof. And they were shown unspeakable things from the sealed record of Heaven, which man is not capable of making known, but must be revealed by the Powers of Heaven.  They beheld Michael, the archangel, Gabriel, and Raphael, and divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the end of time, showing in turns their dispensations, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the Powers of their Priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; endowing them with knowledge, even here a little and there a little; holding forth hope for the work God was yet to perform, even the revelation of all things which are to come upon the earth until the return of the Lord in glory with His holy angels — to pour out judgment upon the world, and to reward the righteous.  And they were unable to take it in; therefore, they were commanded to pray and ask to comprehend by the power of the spirit, to bring all things to their remembrance, even the Record of Heaven which would abide in them. Amen and Amen. (T&C 157 pars. 30 - 32)

It is clear from what the Lord revealed that it was impossible for Joseph and Oliver to understand all that they were shown in vision.

They were commanded to pray and ask to comprehend by the power of the spirit what had been shown to them.

Is this similar to what occurred among the Nephites when the Lord appeared to them and taught them?

Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he looked round about again on the multitude and he said unto them, Behold, my time is at hand. I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time; therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again. But now I go unto the Father, and also to shew myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them. (3 Nephi 17:1 - 4, NC 3 Nephi 8 par. 1)

Would it be unreasonable to state that the Nephites needed to ponder and ask the Father for understanding of what the Lord was going to speak because in their present condition they were "unable to take it in"?

Is this why Nephi declared this concerning himself?

Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord, and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard. (2 Nephi 4:13 - 16, NC 2 Nephi 3 par. 6)

Was Nephi unable to take in everything that he had seen and heard so he had to ponder on all of those things continually in order for understanding to come?

Is this all related to what the Prophet Joseph declared concerning the things of God?

A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination be aware of, because the things of God are of deep import, and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Your mind, O man, if you will lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost Heavens, and search into and contemplate the lowest considerations of the darkest abyss, and expand upon the broad considerations of eternal expanse. You must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God than the vain imagination of the human heart? None but fools will trifle with the souls of men. (T&C 138 par. 18)

Is it possible that even at the time that Nephi was writing concerning his not understanding the purpose for this other record that he had not yet received an understanding of everything the Lord had shown him in the vision?

Or, is it possible that when Nephi was shown his vision he was shown things in general and not every little detail?

How do visions work?

Do they work similarly to prophesy?

In a blogpost concerning principles of prophecy, the following was described.

First, the purpose of prophecy is not always to make a matter clear before it happens. Prophecy may not have a clear meaning before an event happens, but once it has happened it becomes apparent that the event was foretold. This keeps the prophecy from controlling the event, but allows those who have faith to see the Lord’s hand in operation. Therefore, having some difficulty in attaching specific meaning to the prophecy is exactly in keeping with prophecy’s traditional way of communicating an event.  ( "3 Nephi 21:10-11", DenverSnuffer.com, Jul. 2010)

Is this the principle in play here concerning Nephi's words?

If the replacement plates were indeed meant for the sole purpose of relacing what Martin Harris was going to lose was this purposefully veiled from Nephi to show forth afterwards that the Lord knew what was going to happen all along?

I don't know about this because of two things that I have read.

First is the account of Moses being shown a vision of the world.

And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, he cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all the face of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul whom he beheld not. And he discerned them by the spirit of God, and their numbers were great, even as numberless as the sand upon the seashore. And he beheld many lands, and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. (Moses 1:27 - 29, OC Genesis 1 par. 6)

If I understand this correctly Moses witnessed even the smallest details pertaining to the earth; every particle and every inhabitant.

That would seem to mean to me that in vision even the smallest details were presented to Moses.

If I understand it correctly this is a purposeful description of a vision giving even the tiniest of details concerning what Moses was shown.

The second is the words of Nephi's commentary following his insertion of Isaiah into the plates.

But behold, it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book, Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another, that he may shew them unto the learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say, Bring hither the book and I will read them. And now because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God. And the man shall say, I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed. Then shall the learned say, I cannot read it. Wherefore, it shall come to pass that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say, I am not learned. Then shall the Lord God say unto him, The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore, thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee. Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time, for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work. Wherefore, when thou hast read the words which I have commanded thee, and obtained the witnesses which I have promised unto thee, then shalt thou seal up the book again and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men. For behold, I am God, and I am a God of miracles, and I will shew unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and for ever, and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.(2 Nephi 27:15 - 23, NC 2 Nephi 11 par. 20)

It appears to me that here Nephi is using his commentary of Isaiah to describe what he has seen concerning the event where the Book of Mormon characters were taken to professor Anton.

That seems like a very particular detail that Nephi obviously knows about.

If Nephi knows concerning this event during the translation of the Book of Mormon then how would he have not known about Martin Harris losing the original translated manuscript?

Is there another option?

Is it possible that Nephi's mind was so caught up concerning other things in the vision that he did not observe Martin losing the original manuscript?

We know that this has happened to someone receiving a vision because it happened to Lehi.

And they said unto me, What meaneth the river of water which our father saw? And I said unto them that the water which my father saw was filthiness; and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he beheld not the filthiness of the water. And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf which separateth the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God. And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked. And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide the wicked from the righteous, and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire which ascendeth up unto God for ever and ever and hath no end. (1 Nephi 15:21 - 30, NC 1 Nephi 4 par. 5)

Or, is it possible that the Lord's purposes Nephi is speaking of go beyond replacement of the lost original manuscript?

Nephi states clearly what it is that is being inscribed and will be inscribed on these plates.

And I engravened that which is pleasing unto God.

Moroni records something that is telling and maybe helpful to the discussion, close to the end of the record.

And I said unto him, Lord, the gentiles will mock at these things because of our weakness in writing; for Lord, thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing. For thou hast made all this people that they could speak much because of the holy ghost, which thou hast given them. And thou hast made us that we could write but little because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty, even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them. Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them. Wherefore, when we write, we behold our weakness and stumble because of the placing of our words. And I fear lest the gentiles shall mock at our words. (Ether 12:23 - 25, NC Ether 5 par. 4)

It appears to me from what I have read so far of how and what Lehi was teaching to his children and also Nephi that they were well accustomed to listening to words made mighty by faith.

Lehi at the very beginning even spoke with such power that Laman and Lemuel shook before him.

Their writings and engravings seem to be another matter, from what Moroni spoke.

Is it possible that even though Nephi has seen the words of the Book of Mormon going forth among the Gentiles that because he understands the weakness of their writing that he cannot fully understand how the Lord will get the message across to the Gentiles?

Is it possible that in Nephi's statement he is in a way declaring that he does not understand how he would be able to communicate, in his weakness of writing, the things of God that he has received to the Gentiles, but he trusts that the Lord knows what He is doing and is able to accomplish the work He wants to have accomplished in spite of having to use Nephi's weak writing?

When Moroni declared what he declared about the weakness of writing the Lord responded as follows.

And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying, Fools mock, but they shall mourn. And my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness. And if men come unto me, I will shew unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness, that they may be humble. And my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will shew unto the gentiles their weakness. And I will shew unto them that faith, hope, and charity bringeth unto me, the fountain of all righteousness. (Ether 12:26 - 28, NC Ether 5 par. 5)

Is it possible that what the Lord told Moroni above is the wise purpose of the Lord; using the inscribed record of Nephi, even with the weakness of writing?

Was the record Nephi was creating intended all along to draw out the meek among the Gentiles and Jews and remnant of Lehi in the latter days, who see their own weakness before God, and invite them to partake of the Lord's grace by exercising faith until they receive a hope in Christ and thereby obtain charity?

The Book of Mormon, again and again, repeats witnesses of individuals who have through those steps been brought to Christ, the fountain of all righteousness.

Moroni prayed to the Lord to give the Gentiles grace and the Lord would not give him that promise.

And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the gentiles grace, that they might have charity. And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me, If they have not charity, it mattereth not unto thee. Thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.  And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren, whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another, in mine own language, concerning these things. And only a few have I written because of my weakness in writing. And now I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you for ever. Amen. (Ether 12:36 - 41, NC Ether 5 pars. 7 - 8)

Is this Book of Mormon the means the Lord established in the latter days for us to reconnect with Him?

Do we find in the Book of Mormon principles, teachings, commandments, and Christ's doctrine that would enable any individual to meekly approach the Lord?

Do we find in the Book of Mormon a promise that every individual who approaches the Lord, according to those things He has established to be written in it, will come back into His presence during this life and receive of His grace?

Because of his weakness in writing and his experiences of hearing powerful things spoken, is it possible that Nephi wondered something like "I don't understand why I would be commanded to write these things because my writing is weak, but God, in His wisdom, knows why He has commanded me to prepare this weak record in order to fulfill His wise purposes"?

I am not sure which is the solution to the question.

These are the things I am wondering about right now concerning Nephi's statement.

All the Feeling of a Tender Parent

1 Nephi 8: 36 - 1 Nephi 9:1, NC 1 Nephi 2 par. 13


And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel; yea, he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord. And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent that they would hearken to his words, in that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them and not cast them off; yea, my father did preach unto them. And after he had preached unto them, and also prophesied unto them of many things, he bade them to keep the commandments of the Lord; and he did cease speaking unto them. And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak as he dwelt in a tent in the valley of Lemuel, and also a great many more things which cannot be written upon these plates.

A backtrack again.

There seems to be sooo much to what Lehi saw in vision and when you start to wonder about certain parts of what he saw other questions continue to arise.

That is part of what is so difficult about putting out any ideas in a blog.  There is no time or room to discuss all that is there.

My dad and I were discussing the principle of repentance with respect to Lehi's vision.

Three points that seem to indicate a finality of things, or in other words a point of no return, as we viewed it, were 1) drowning in the filthy water 2) being ashamed after partaking of the fruit 3) being in the great and spacious building when it falls and great is the fall thereof.

1) Drowning

Is it possible that is what was occurring to the entire Nephite nation when Mormon stated the following?

And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel, the prophet. For behold, no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land. Thus, there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi. And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation, and their mourning, and their sorrowing before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them, that they would again become a righteous people. But behold, this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance because of the goodness of God, but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin. And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God and wish to die. Nevertheless, they would struggle with the sword for their lives. And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was past with them, both temporally and spiritually, for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellion against their God and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years had passed away. (Mormon 2:10 - 16, NC Mormon 1:6)

I used this citation in the last post but wanted to use it here again as an example where it would appear that the nation as a whole has basically "drowned" in sin and despair to the point that even their sorrowing is the sorrowing of the damned.

Is this the time or one of the times that Samuel the Lamanite was prophesying about when he declared,

 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation, ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light? Yea, behold, the anger of the Lord is already kindled against you. Behold, he hath cursed the land because of your iniquity; and behold, the time cometh that he curseth your riches, that it becometh slippery, that ye cannot hold them. And in the days of your poverty ye cannot retain them, and in the days of your poverty ye shall cry unto the Lord; and in vain shall ye cry, for your desolation is already come upon you and your destruction is made sure. And then shall ye weep and howl in that day, saith the Lord of Hosts. And then shall ye lament and say, Oh that I had repented and had not killed the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out. Yea, in that day shall ye say, Oh that we had remembered the Lord our God in the day that he gave us our riches, and then they would not have become slippery, that we should lose them; for behold, our riches are gone from us. Behold, we lay a tool here and on the morrow it is gone. And behold, our swords are taken from us in the day we have sought them for battle. Yea, we have hid up our treasures and they have slipped away from us because of the curse of the land. Oh that we had repented in the day that the word of the Lord came unto us, for behold, the land is cursed, and all things have become slippery and we cannot hold them. Behold, we are surrounded by demons, yea, we are encircled about by the angels of him who hath sought to destroy our souls. Behold, our iniquities are great. O Lord, canst thou not turn away thine anger from us? And this shall be your language in these days.  But behold, your days of probation are past. Ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain, and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and eternal Head. O ye people of the land, that ye would hear my words. And I pray that the anger of the Lord be turned away from you and that ye would repent and be saved. (Helaman 13:29 - 39, NC Helaman 5 pars. 8 - 9)

Do Mormon's words show that they had crossed the point of no return, not because they couldn't repent but, because they lost their strength and will to do so? (Like someone who has become so exhausted that they have no strength left to stay afloat and they drown.)

2) Being ashamed after partaking of the fruit.

Is it possible that many of those who witnessed such marvelous light during the time of the Prophet Joseph fell into this category?

The Lord stated this concerning some of them.

"Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, says the Lord, and cry, They have sinned, when they have not sinned before me, says the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.  But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves, and those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them unto bondage and death, woe unto them because they have offended my little ones.  They shall be severed from the ordinances of my house, their basket shall not be full, their Houses and their barns shall famish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.  They shall not have right to the Priesthood, nor their posterity after them, from generation to generation.  It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks and they drowned in the depth of the sea." (D&C 121:16 -22, T&C 138 pars. 13 - 14)

This, to me, would appear to be a statement that communicates a finality of judgment or impossibility of coming back from that judgment.

Did those who betrayed Joseph and Hyrum after having received so much light do so because they were overcome by those things discussed in the last post that are part of the great and spacious building?

3) Occupying the great and spacious building when it experiences its great fall

During Nephi's vision, the angel spoke the following

And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying, Behold, the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold, the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And it came to pass that I saw and bear record that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and the fall thereof was exceeding great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying, Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (1 Nephi 11:32 - 36, NC 1 Nephi 3 par. 14)

Again, to me, this statement seems to possess a bit of finality to it.

I have wondered when exactly this would occur or if it is an event of multiple occurrences.

One thing the Lord has declared that makes me wonder if the time is close is the following.

For in that day, for my sake, shall the Father work a work which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them, and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them. But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore, they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will shew unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil. Therefore, it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the gentiles, it shall be done even as Moses said — They shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant. And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through, both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. Yea, woe be unto the gentiles except they repent, for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots, and I will cut off the cities of thy land and throw down all thy strong holds. And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers. Thy graven images I will also cut off and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands. And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities. And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms shall be done away. For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day, whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel, and I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. (3 Nephi 21:9 - 21, NC 3 Nephi 9 par.12)

Clear up to the point that what the Lord declared would occur does occur, is it possible that someone may leave the building and make their way to the path and the tree?

Those who are lost to view in strange roads, is it possible that we all find ourselves at one point or another in this situation?

The Lord stated through Joseph,

Therefore, it is an imperious duty that we owe, not only to our own wives and children, but to the widows and fatherless, whose husbands and fathers have been murdered under its iron hand, which dark and blackening deeds are enough to make hell itself shudder, and to stand aghast and pale, and the hands of the very Devil to tremble and palsy. And also it is an imperious duty that we owe to all the rising generation and to all the pure in heart (which there are many yet on the earth, among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it), therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness wherein we know them and they are truly manifest from Heaven. (T&C 139 par. 15)

Is it possible that one interpretation of the above is that if we possess truth we ought to reach out to those who find themselves in "strange roads"

At the beginning of Lehi's vision did he find himself situated in a "strange road"?

What did that part of the vision represent for Lehi?  Is it possible that it was representative of Lehi's earlier life and meant to give hope to others who might find themselves in "strange roads"?

In all of this, the recurring question to me is, "where am I presently located in this vision"?

If the arm of the Lord is continually extended to all men, am I in a position where I can yet repent and choose light for myself?

If I am presently off of the path because I have not watched myself, and my thoughts, and my words and my deeds and kept myself in remembrance of Christ can I still return and overcome the additional condemnation I have put upon myself by departing from the path because of being overcome by my own blindness of mind and my hardness of heart?

I apologize for the long sidetrack.

In this part of the narrative is it possible for us to see a view of how a parent, part of the Family of God, feels for all of their children?

Are we seeing here, in part, the tender feelings of our Father as he reaches out to all of us in spite of our rebellions?

The phrase to "exhort them with all the feeling of a tender parent" is a very descriptive phrase.

Is it possible that this phrase could also be applied to this event with Adam and Eve?

And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters. (Moses 5:12, OC Genesis 3 par. 4)

Could we reasonably suppose that Adam and Eve also exhorted their sons and daughters with all the feelings of tender parents?

Should that be the only way that I and my wife exhort our children; with the feelings of tender parents?

If we exhort our children this way will our exhortations include persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness, and pure knowledge?

Given that the record states that Lehi and Sariah both were goodly parents, is it reasonable to believe that Sariah was also present during this event?

Would it be reasonable to assume that she was contributing her wisdom to these exhortations?

Nephi is very particular to record that Lehi stated that he had great fear for Laman and Lemuel that they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord.

If I remember right, this is the second time that Laman and Lemuel being cast off or cut off from the presence of the Lord is mentioned.

The first time was from the Lord Himself speaking to Nephi.


And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. (1 Nephi 2:21, NC 1 Nephi 1 par. 9)

Why is it mentioned both of these times, specifically, concerning being cast off or cut off from the presence of the Lord?

Why does Lehi fear greatly concerning Laman and Lemuel having this happen to them?

Why did the Lord specifically speak concerning this?

Should I be looking at this and going what does this all mean for me?

If we go back and consider what we have already looked at concerning "rulers and teachers" and "beckoning" is it possible that we might find a connection between the earthly presence of those who were called as "rulers and teachers" even before the foundations of the earth, their missions to "beckon" to all to partake of the fruit and the limited time that the opportunity to partake of salvation, a restoration of the family of God, is available at any one time on the earth?

Could Lehi fear exceedingly for Laman and Lemuel because of the limited time available to them to heed the beckoning call of an authorized "ruler and teacher" and enter into the presence of the Lord in order to then enter into the presence of the Father in order to become part of the House or Family of God?

Remember what the Lord declared?

In the journey through my Father’s realms are many stages with temporary abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare an abode for your upward journey. And when I arise, I will prepare places for you, but I will be your companion again and visit each of you, so that where I travel, you may journey to also. And the path I follow upward you know, and the way of ascent you also know. Thomas said to him, Lord, we don’t know where you are going; how can we know the way? You have not told us. Jesus said to him, I am the way, the record of the truth, and the means for Eternal lives, worlds without end: no man comes to the Throne of the Father without me. If you follow me, you will come to the Father’s Throne through me and will thereafter be like him forever. (T&C 171, The Testimony of St. John 10 par. 9)

According to the Lord is there any way to make it to the Throne of the Father without Him?

If an opportunity then to enter into the Lord's presence is rejected is there a stop to that person's ability to progress and continue the journey?

Is it possible for cursing to come because of such a rejection?

And this greater Priesthood administers the gospel and holds the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest, and without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the Priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto man in the flesh, for without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.  Now, this, Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God, but they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore, the Lord, in his wrath (for his anger was kindled against them) swore that they should not enter into his rest — which rest is the fullness of his glory — while in the wilderness.  Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also. And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holds the key of the ministering of angels, and the preparatory gospel, which gospel is the gospel of repentance, and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron, among the children of Israel, until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the holy ghost from his mother’s womb. For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power: to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power. (D&C 84, T&C 82 pars. 12 - 14)

Remember all along how we have talked about "priesthood" being an association first with angels, then with Christ, and ultimately with the Father; becoming part of the Family of God?

If we are to understand what happened to the Israelites at Siani didn't they reject the opportunity to associate with the Lord?

Wouldn't that association have given them a greater Priesthood?

If it is impossible to see the face of God and live without this greater Priesthood isn't that a confirmation of what the Lord told His disciples; "...no man comes to the throne of the Father without me."?

Without an association or priesthood with Christ, no one is able to come to the throne of the Father.

Israel lost this opportunity to have this association or Priesthood with Christ which would have allowed them to continue to the Throne of the Father and restore the Family of God again on the earth following hundreds of years of apostasy in Egypt. 

When they rejected this the Lord swore in His wrath that they should not enter into His presence.

What does that mean?

Does it mean that the opportunity passed for them to receive what they might have received but they would not?

That would mean that it then became impossible for them to have the Family of God restored to them at that time.

The Prophet Joseph speaking of this event declared,

When God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man, and he refuses to receive it, he will be damned. The Israelites prayed that God would speak to Moses and not to them; in consequence of which he cursed them with a carnal law. What was the power of Melchizedek? ‘Twas not the Priesthood of Aaron which administers in outward ordinances, and the offering of sacrifices. Those holding the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood are kings and priests of the Most High God, holding the keys of power and blessings. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 322)

The Israelites were damned.  Their progress to the Throne of the Father and the Family of God was halted and they were left with a law that held a lesser Priesthood or association; the association with angels.

This law continued clear to the time of Christ.

During this time very few individuals came up to an association or Priesthood with the Lord and ultimately with God.

Joseph again explained,

Answer to the question, Was the Priesthood of Melchizedek taken away when Moses died?

All Priesthood is Melchizedek, but there are different portions or degrees of it. That portion which

brought Moses to speak with God face to face was taken away; but that which brought the ministry

of angels remained. All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God

himself." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 180 - 181)

Because of the deficiency in the nation of Israel, those prophets who obtained an association or Priesthood with Christ and ultimately with God did so solo.

The next opportunity for Israel at large to receive what was offered at Siani did not come until the Lord's earthly advent.

The prophet Joseph declared,

And God said unto Noah the end of all flesh is before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and behold I will destroy them with the earth," thus we behold the Keys of this priesthood consisted in obtaining the voice of Jehovah that he talked with him in a familiar and friendly manner, that he continued to him the Keys, the Covenants, the power and glory with which he blessed Adam at the beginning and the offring of Sacrifice which also shall be continued at the last time, for all ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the priesthood under the direction and commandments of the Almighty in any of the dispensations, shall all be had in the last dispensation.  Therefore all things had under the Authority of the Priesthood at any former period shall be had again - bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets.  "then shall the sons of Levi offer an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord Se[e] Malichi 3 Chap. 3&4 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of Silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine, set forth in the above quotation, As it is generally supposed that Sacrifice was entirely done away when the great sacrifice was offered up- and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of Sacrifice in the future, but those who assert this, are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood.  or with the prophets The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the priesthood.  It began with the priesthood and will be continued until after the coming of Christ from generation to generation-We free-quently have mention made of offering of Sacrifice by the servants of the most high in ancient days prior to the law of moses, See which ordinances will be continued when the priesthood is restored with all its authority power and blessings.

Elijah was the last prophet that held the keys of this priesthood, and who will, (a reference to a yet future event) before the last dispensation, restore the authority and delive[r] the Keys of this priesthood in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness.

It is true that the Savior had authority and power to bestow this blessing but the Sons of Levi were too predjudi[ced]

And I will send Elijah the Prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord &c &c.

Why send Elijah because he holds the Keys of Authority to administer in all the ordinances of the priesthood and without the authority is given the ordinances could not be administered in righteousness. (The Words of Joseph Smith, Ehat and Cooke,  pgs. 42 - 44)

As I understand what has been said, Elijah was the last in Israel to hold the keys to present the opportunity to Israel again before the Lord came but it was when the Lord came that He came to gather Israel again.

The Lord had the authority to present the opportunity again but "the sons of Levi were too prejudiced" to receive the offer so it was again removed and the opportunity for the house of Israel to again have the Family of God restored to them was lost and they then lost any further opportunities for such an offer to the Gentiles.

It would appear that the opportunity for the restoration of the Family of God on the earth happens very few times on the earth and when the opportunity is rejected by those receiving the offer it is taken from them and generations come and generations go before the offer is extended again.

If such an opportunity is available during my life, since it occurs so rarely upon the earth, would it not be a responsibility that devolves upon me to humble myself and accept the Lord's offer to be a part of His work to reestablish the Family of God again on the earth?

The Prophet Joseph was a messenger sent with the authority to present the opportunity to the Gentiles.

The Gentile church, founded by Joseph, rejected the same opportunity that the Israelites rejected at Siani.

Joseph and Hyrum were taken out of their midst like Moses and they, the church, were left with the lesser order of association or priesthood; an association with angels.

Four generations have passed since the initial rejection and another messenger has been sent with authority to renew the Lord's offer again.

In the Glossary of terms under "Jesus Christ as the Father" in the T&C we read the following.

If you hear the voice of God speaking to you, telling you Psalms 2:2, You are my son; this day have I begotten you, the voice you will be hearing will be Christ’s. No one gets out of this world, back into the family of God in eternity, without Christ as their father. We’re all the descendants of Adam, which means we’re going to die. But if we become sons [and daughters] of God, we become sons [and daughters] of that God who won the victory over the grave, who becomes our Father, which is why the Book of Mormon calls Him the very Eternal Father — because Christ has to be your father in order to escape the doom which belongs to Adam.

Lehi, having become part of the Family of God, and having a son who likewise had become a son of God as well, would have understood the principle of lost opportunities because of one's rejecting what the Lord was offering?

Is it possible, like Abraham to Joseph in Egypt, that through Lehi a branch broken off from Israel had the Family of God restored to them; first through Lehi then Nephi and likewise his brother Jacob and then Enos?

Would Lehi fear greatly for Laman and Lemuel being "cast off" from the presence of the Lord because that would mean they had forfeited the rare opportunity being given to be part of a restoration of the Family of God on the earth?

What consequences personally in this life and in the eternities would that lead to for them?

What about Laman and Lemuel's posterity?

What were the consequences for them?

How many generations passed among the Lamanites before King Lamoni came into the presence of the Lord?

What are the consequences for me if I do not accept now what the Lord is offering?

At this point, it would seem to me that even with what Lehi has seen in vision he does not feel that his sons are beyond the point of repentance.

The language Lehi uses to try to persuade his two sons is very telling of the position that Lehi is in.

And he did exhort them then with all the feeling of a tender parent that they would hearken to his words, in that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them and not cast them off;

Lehi has seen in vision the situation of his two oldest sons.

Yet he tries to persuade them that perhaps by their heeding the Lord would not cast them off.

In my opinion, there is an account in the book Beloved Enos that reflects the actions of Lehi here.

Enos verse 13
And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him --- that if it should so be that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation.

This is what Nephi saw in vision.  This is what he carved onto the Small Plates of Nephi (on which Enos is now writing).  With these words Enos is accepting the prophecy of Nephi, and more likely also accepting the things which his "many long struggling" led him to realize.
Nephi knew his descendants would fail in their faith, be destroyed by the Lamanites, and that the Lamanites would also lose the true faith.  Nephi also wrote that the record or testimony of the Nephites would be restored to the Lamanites at some future time.
Given that Nephi wrote these things on the same plates on which Enos is now writing, the question arises as to why Enos puts his wording so tentative.  He does not come right out and repeat what Nephi has written.  Instead he makes this future uncertain.  He writes: "[I]f it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means..."  He knew this was going to happen.  It is already prophesied in the very plates on which he was etching his own record.  Given this, we should consider why he uses tentative language rather than definite language to describe this already known future.  It was not because he was unaware of his people's fate.  Nor was it due to a lack of faith on his part.  Rather, since Enos would have been given the sealing power as a part of having his calling and election made sure, he would have been cautious about how he stated in his sacred writings his descendants' fate.  Remember that once someone has been given the power to bind the Lord, the Lord has committed Himself to vindicate the words of such a servant.  Enos' use of tentative language on something which has already been prophesied by Nephi is one of the confirming evidences that Enos has been given the sealing power (and correspondingly had his calling and election made sure).  He did not want anything he said or wrote to bind the Lord to this unwanted outcome. (Beloved Enos, Denver Snuffer, pgs. 84 - 86)

In spite of what Lehi has been shown in the vision he does not want to bind the Lord to the unwanted outcome of Laman and Lemuel, his sons, being cast off from the presence of the Lord.

This does not reflect a lack of faith on Lehi's part.

This reflects, in my opinion, that Lehi possesses the sealing power and so he is very cautious of what he speaks.

He understands how to hold sacred things.

He is inviting and bidding his sons to keep the commandments of God.

Today is the 21st of December.
Since I consider this blog to be a diary of my scripture studies I need to update something from this post.

I tend to fixate on somethings to the exclusion of the obvious and I believe that I have done that in this post.

In Ether, the Brother of Jared left a record of an event that I believe applies to Lehi's desire that Laman and Lemuel not be cut off from the presence of the Lord.

And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord shewed himself unto him and said, Because thou knowest these things, ye are redeemed from the Fall. Therefore, ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I shew myself unto you. Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life; and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name. And they shall become my sons and my daughters. And to none of those now living whom I created have I appeared, for none have believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this body which ye now behold is the body of my spirit. And man have I created after the body of my spirit. And even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:13 - 16, NC Ether 1:13)

It would appear from what the Lord Himself declared to the brother of Jared that if someone is to be redeemed from the fall they must have the Lord show Himself to them just like the brother of Jared experienced here; in the flesh.

This is what Lehi experienced and Nephi as well.

If we are cut off from the Lord is it possible for us to be redeemed from the fall?

Is this a serious matter?

How would I cut myself off from the presence of the Lord?

If Lehi was so earnest in seeking to persuade Laman and Lemuel to not be cut off from the presence of the Lord, should I be concerned about this for me and my family?