And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying, Look. And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people, yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record. And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. And after he was slain, I saw the multitudes of the earth, that they were gathered together to fight against the apostles of the Lamb, for thus were the twelve called by the angel of the Lord. And the multitude of the earth was gathered together, and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying, Behold, the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold, the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And it came to pass that I saw and bear record that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and the fall thereof was exceeding great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying, Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The Stick of Joseph in the Hand of Ephraim, 1 Nefi 3 par. 14
And it came to pass that the angel spoke unto me again, saying, Look. And I looked and beheld the Lamb of Elohim, that he was taken by the people, yes, the Son of the El Olam was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record. And I, Nefi, saw that he was lifted up upon the Tz’lav and slain for the sins of the world. And after he was slain, I saw the multitudes of the earth, that they were gathered together to fight against the emissaries of the Lamb, for thus were the twelve called by the angel of yhwh. And the multitude of the earth was gathered together, and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of yhwh spoke unto me again, saying, Behold, the world and the wisdom thereof; yes, behold, the house of Isra’el has gathered together to fight against the twelve emissaries of the Lamb. And it came to pass that I saw and bear record that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of yhwh spoke unto me, saying, Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve emissaries of the Lamb.
As we consider the great and spacious building, could we again consider the scriptural definition of the term "world"?
The following is the definition of the term "World" found in the Glossary of Terms in the Teachings and Commandments.
“The world and earth are not synonymous terms. The world is the human family.”1 What is the end of the world? The destruction of the wicked.2
1 WJS, 60, 82n1, 25n9; JS, Discourse, Nauvoo, IL, 5 Jan. 1841; in L. John Nuttall, journal, pp. 4–8; handwriting of L. John Nuttall; L. John Nuttall, Papers, BYU. “Account of Meeting and Discourse, 5 January 1841, as Reported by William Clayton,” 5, JSP, https: //www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/account-of-meeting-and-discourse- 5-january-1841-as-reported-by-william-clayton/2.
What Nephi is seeing represented in the great and spacious building is the wisdom of the human family that is contrary to and being used to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
If it is correct, from the last post, that Joseph who was sold into Egypt is part of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, then 1) Again, who are these folks and why were they chosen before the foundation of the human family? 2)What really is the purpose of this role of being one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
Nephi is shown that the multitudes of the earth were involved in this fighting against the twelve.
Does the description "multitudes of the earth" mean everyone or just the supermajority of them?
Why did the angel separately state that the house of Israel has gathered together to fight against the twelve?
Is it more egregious for the house of Israel to be fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb than it is for the other multitudes of the earth?
Is the house of Israel specifically mentioned because of their covenantal status through the promises of the Lord to their fathers?
Was it possible for them to leave the status of covenant bearers because of their fighting against the twelve?
If it was possible for them to lose covenantal status because of their fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb and if I believe that I am part of a covenant then could I lose that status as well if I choose to fight against the twelve?
Was the angel specifically pointing this out to Nephi to show that it is possible to lose covenantal status by fighting against the twelve?
Is the house of Israel specifically mentioned because of their covenantal status through the promises of the Lord to their fathers?
Was it possible for them to leave the status of covenant bearers because of their fighting against the twelve?
If it was possible for them to lose covenantal status because of their fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb and if I believe that I am part of a covenant then could I lose that status as well if I choose to fight against the twelve?
Was the angel specifically pointing this out to Nephi to show that it is possible to lose covenantal status by fighting against the twelve?
What does it mean to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
Is this physical confrontation?
Is this fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb limited to the time frame of the apostles following the death and resurrection of Christ?
Is this fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb limited to the time frame of the apostles following the death and resurrection of Christ?
If Joseph who was sold into Egypt is included in the twelve apostles of the Lamb and to fight against them meant physical confrontation, then how would someone fight against Joseph since he had long since died?
Is it possible that fighting against them is something more than or maybe different from physical confrontation?
Since the wisdom of the world (the great and spacious building) is a representation of the wisdom of the human family, doesn't the human family include everyone from all ages of the earth in every time?
Is it possible that members of the human family before the time of Christ and after, even to now, have been and are and will be fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
Is it possible that fighting against them is something more than or maybe different from physical confrontation?
Since the wisdom of the world (the great and spacious building) is a representation of the wisdom of the human family, doesn't the human family include everyone from all ages of the earth in every time?
Is it possible that members of the human family before the time of Christ and after, even to now, have been and are and will be fighting against the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
How would the wisdom of the human family be used to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
If so, what would that include?
If the human family is described to be fighting against these twelve emissaries because of the "wisdom" of the human family (the great and spacious building) could their fighting against the twelve include their rejection of the message the twelve are sent to deliver?
If I reject the message that the twelve apostles of the Lamb were sent to deliver could it be said of me that I am fighting against them?
Could the following event from the Book of Mormon be one example of many that demonstrates "fighting" against the twelve apostles of the Lamb?
Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers. They did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did they believe concerning the coming of Christ. And now, because of their unbelief, they could not understand the word of God, and their hearts were hardened. And they would not be baptized, neither would they join the church. And they were a separate people as to their faith, and remained so ever after, even in their carnal and sinful state, for they would not call upon the Lord their God. And now in the reign of Mosiah, they were not half so numerous as the people of God; but because of the dissensions among the brethren, they became more numerous. For it came to pass that they did deceive many — with their flattering words — who were in the church, and did cause them to commit many sins. Therefore, it became expedient that those who committed sin, that were in the church, should be admonished by the church. (Mosiah 26:1 - 6, NC Mosiah 11 par. 18)
Could rejecting the message that the twelve were sent to deliver be related to what the angel told Joseph on the night of his first September visit?
... He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses [Acts 2:3], precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ, but the day had not yet come when they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people, but soon would come. He also quoted the second chapter of Joel from the twenty-eighth to the last verse [Joel 1:12]. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated the fullness of the gentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of scripture and offered many explanations which cannot be mentioned here. (Joseph Smith History 1:36 - 41, T&C section 1 Joseph Smith History, part 3, par. 4)
Could rejecting the message that the twelve were sent to deliver be related to what the angel told Joseph on the night of his first September visit?
... He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses [Acts 2:3], precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ, but the day had not yet come when they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people, but soon would come. He also quoted the second chapter of Joel from the twenty-eighth to the last verse [Joel 1:12]. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated the fullness of the gentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of scripture and offered many explanations which cannot be mentioned here. (Joseph Smith History 1:36 - 41, T&C section 1 Joseph Smith History, part 3, par. 4)
Is it possible that not hearing the voice of Christ, or in other words, not receiving the words that Christ has sent constitutes rejecting the message sent through His twelve or fighting against His twelve?
I believe what King Benjamin spoke concerning committing sin.
..And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them...(Mosiah 4:26 - 30, NC Mosiah 2 par. 6)
I believe that this same principle would be true with this subject; that there are diverse ways and means to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb, even so many that they cannot be numbered.
Are there general principles stated in the scriptures that if applied will help one avoid placing themselves in the camp of fighting against the twelve because of the wisdom of the human family?
What about the following?
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from them who think they are wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes. Because, Father, for so it seemed good in your sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father, and no man knows that the Son is the Father, and that the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. And he turned himself unto the disciples and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see, for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them. (Luke 10:21 - 24, NC Luke 8 par. 6)
Does the above have any relation to this statement from the Lord?
... And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Verily, verily I say unto you that this is my doctrine. And whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establisheth it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil and is not built upon my rock, but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell standeth open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. Therefore, go forth unto this people and declare the words which I have spoken unto the ends of the earth. (3 Nephi 11:31 - 41, NC 3 Nephi 5 par. 9)
Why does the Lord use the terms babes and children in the above references?
Was the Lord referring to His disciples as the "babes"?
I believe so.
Does that give new meaning to the statement the Lord made that if someone was guilty of offending one of His little ones it would be better that a millstone be set about their necks and they be drowned in the depths of the sea?
What are the qualities that "children" and "babes" possess that allow them to receive a message God has sent?
Consider the following.
Believe in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and become as a little child. There is no more inquisitive a creature on the planet than a little child. That’s who you’re to become. You should hunger and search for understanding. This is all of the doctrine. There is no more doctrine. This is not all of the teachings, this is not all the tenants, these are not all of the precepts, this is not all of the covenants, this is not all of the commandments, and this is not all of the principles, but it’s all of the doctrine. There is no more doctrine than this…
We have this absolutely schizophrenic set of pictures in our head about the Lord. On the one hand, He is this limp-wristed, happy-go-lucky, permissive chap who sashays about blessing everyone with fairy dust. And on the other hand, we have this stern, unapproachable, distant, galactic ruler who just can’t be troubled by any of us and He says, This is His work and His glory, to save you. Not merely to save and preserve you, but to bring about your eternal life and your exaltation. That’s what He’s about. Get rid of the junk in your heads and let the scriptures speak to you. As Joseph said, Look, everything in them can be a mystery if what you have done is barred the information from getting through to you by the door that you have erected from the traditions that you have been handed. Many of you have been handed traditions from very good and very well meaning and very honorable Latter Day Saint parents who ought to be commended and praised for the effort that they made with you.
However, I don’t care if your parents were nigh unto God or the devil himself, the fact of the matter remains that we all have the freedom to choose to leave behind whatever it is that becomes the door against which the Savior has to knock, hoping that you’ll hear his voice. We have to become as a little child, because it’s only the little children who are willing to open themselves up and become vulnerable enough to believe and then hopeful enough to act on that belief, so that they develop faith and then persistent enough to ask again, and again, and again… are we there yet, are we there yet? ("As a Little Child", Podcast 72, Denver Snuffer.com)
I would invite everyone to listen to or to read the full transcript of the podcast "As a Little Child", podcast #72.
I believe it has great application to what Nephi is sharing here from his marvelous vision.
If we become people who thirst and hunger for truth, light, and understanding; if we become people who are inquisitive and willing to let the words of the Lord inform us instead of reading our traditions and learning into His words then won't the rest of the human family, those who consider themselves wise and prudent, look at us as though we are unlearned children?
Didn't the Lord declare in an above scripture that God reveals things that are kept hid from those who consider themselves wise and prudent?
Didn't the Lord declare in an above scripture that God reveals things that are kept hid from those who consider themselves wise and prudent?
Would the above give new meaning to what Isaiah prophesied?
For behold, the Lord, the Lord of Hosts doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole staff of bread and the whole stay of water, the mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, the captain of fifty, and the honorable man, and the counselor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. And I will give children unto them to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them... (2 Nephi 13:1 - 11, NC 2 Nephi 8 par. 7)
Nephi stated, "I saw and bear record that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world."
My present understanding is that Nephi's statement means that the human family is proud of its wisdom (the great and spacious building).
In my mind it is like someone saying "look at this", whatever it may be. "This object is the pride of the neighborhood" or the pride of the city or the pride of the country or the pride of the etc.
What does it mean when Nephi states, "And it came to pass that I saw and bear record that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and the fall thereof was exceeding great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying, Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb."
As we consider the wisdom of the human family (the great and spacious building), what does it mean that the fall of this wisdom is exceeding great?
Does it have anything to do with what the Lord declared?
And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Verily, verily I say unto you that this is my doctrine. And whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establisheth it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil and is not built upon my rock, but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell standeth open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
What are the floods and winds that will beat upon all but that will overcome those who do not build upon the doctrine of Christ?
Would being received into the gates of hell be something that could be considered an exceeding great fall?
What about the statement of the angel, who I believe was Nephi, to the Prophet Joseph on that September evening in 1823?
He said that that prophet was Christ, but the day had not yet come when they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people, but soon would come.
Could being cut off from among the people possibly be associated with being destroyed?
Is Nephi trying to plainly invite us and exhort us to become as little children so that we do not find ourselves in the great and spacious building (the wisdom of the human family) where the only outcome is to be cut off from among the people and received by the gates of hell because of the winds and floods that will beat upon us?
To me, the admonition to become childlike in order to avoid entering into the great and spacious building follows more in line with the rest of what King Benjamin said about committing sin.
But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe to keep the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember and perish not. (Mosiah 4:26 - 30, NC Mosiah 2 par. 6)
I don't know that it is possible to describe all the ways that exist to enter into the great and spacious building but my present understanding of how to avoid it is to become childlike as I hear and read and ponder the message the twelve apostles of the Lamb were sent to deliver.
Under my present understanding, I can hear Nephi saying to me in this part of the vision, "And now, o Jon, remember and become as a little child and be not part of the great fall and the destruction of nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples who fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb."
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